Sustainability (Part 1)

Georgia (00:00): Deems' trainers aren't currently making me break out in hives.

Adam (00:03): What size hole should we dig for ourselves now?

Georgia (00:04): All the disclaimers. Let's do the disclaimer dance!

Adam (00:11): We just wanted to let you know that in this episode we cover a couple of challenging topics.

Georgia (00:16): Indeed. So there's a brief mention of eating disorders, disordered eating, and we also talk about animal welfare, particularly—

Adam (00:23): Mulesing.

Georgia (00:24): We're having conversation about sustainability environment and it came up, but we wanted to give you a heads up. If that is not a conversation that is a good, happy place for you, then, well this is not really a good, happy place for anyone really, is it? But, if it's more challenging then is worth your while, then feel free to skip this episode and, go and listen to one of our other episodes.

Adam (00:46): Where we usually talk about much happier and brighter things.

Georgia (00:48): Yeah, exactly. This is a new territory to have a trigger warning. But, yeah, we just wanted to give you a heads up.

Adam (00:53): Keep you informed.

Adam (00:54): Welcome to the Yarn Library Podcast with me, Adam Cleevely—

Georgia (00:56): And me Georgia Denham at Tulipurl on Instagram.

Adam (01:00): And today we are talking about sustainability.

Georgia (01:03): Yes. I think we've already planned that it's gonna be a, a two-parter, 'cause there's so much to get into. I dunno if that's spoilers. Was that spoilers? I don't know.

Adam (01:10): I'm interested on the one hand, I think we might be a two-parter. I could also see it maybe being done in one and possibly that it takes three or four, so.

Georgia (01:19): Alright. I dunno if you're... if I should have taken that as a personal @-ing.

Adam (01:23): That wasn't—

Georgia (01:24): It's very much both of us, to be honest. Actually, I—

Adam (01:26): I, yeah. I just—

Georgia (01:26): Speaking as the person who edits—

Adam (01:28): I dunno. Do you do the stats on who rambles more?

Georgia (01:30): I have wondered about doing that, but I'm kind of almost scared of the answer sometimes. Yeah, I didn't sleep very much last night, so apologies if I.... I am a bit more, I dunno what the word is because I didn't sleep very much.

Adam (01:44): Tired.

Georgia (01:44): Tired?

Adam (01:44): Tired is the word you're looking for, Georgia. We were, we were also just having a discussion about, literally and we were like, oh, we should really hit record now 'cause it's time to get on with this.

Adam (01:53): We were just talking about Georgia's amazing outro, which I explained to Georgia that I absolutely love every time the podcast finishes when I get to listen to it. And, Georgia says, if you've got anything bad to say, basically, "shh, it's a Yarn Library". Which, I think, which I was explaining that I absolutely love it because I think it's hilarious and it makes me laugh every time. But also I completely disagree with it because I really appreciate like negative and constructive feedback too.

Georgia (02:18): You like the drama. Um, no. And when I made it, to be fair, I was also, I was very tired. I think I didn't have my podcast mic at the time and I didn't wanna get on my fancy mic that was for vocal recording, so it picks up everything. And so I used this old reporter mic that I had from a project I did years ago, and I wrapped myself in like a mattress topper to absorb the sound, I was sat under my desk going, "shh, it's a Yarn Library" So that was the behind the scenes of that moment. But I made it just as like a last minute, like, oh, let's "elevate". And hadn't discussed it with Adam and then it stuck. But I mean, to be honest, I thought if we've got haters, they're gonna hate anyway, so I might as well say it to hate on the haters about like, "shh, it's a Yarn Library".

Adam (03:09): Well, I tell you what, if you hate something about this podcast and yet somehow you still endure and listen to it then feel free to direct any negative criticism to me on Instagram.

Georgia (03:20): And me. It's not averse to— I am always here for pleasant debate and criticism and constructive criticism. Um, yeah, I'm, I'm always here for that. And to that end actually—

Adam (03:31): How is your PhD?

Georgia (03:35): What?

Adam (03:35): I'm sorry, you literally served it up Georgia.

Georgia (03:37): You haven't got your sign yet that says "Joke" and so I need that. Or actually no, 'cause then he'd stopped getting these sudden unexpected deer in the headlights reactions out of me, which I know you enjoy. So...

Adam (03:51): I do, I have to get something outta this.

Georgia (03:54): So, yeah, I shared a story about some messages I got from somebody who'd said something about my, PhD and I do wanna offer some clarity on this because, I've had so, so much, support, lovely messages and kind comments and things. And I really, really appreciate it. And it's so lovely to know that you really like the academic vibe that I bring to this podcast and you are happy to hear about my PhD. And you don't think I'm saying it too much or, bragging that's really nice to hear. I just do wanna emphasise that the person who had shared that, I don't think meant it in that way, in the sense that they wanted to hear about the PhD content, but they felt that every time I mentioned a reference, they felt that I was qualifying it with that, which is an opinion that, we are entitled to disagree with, we are entitled to agree with, and I will gently leave it there, but I just wanted to offer that clarity and also thank you for all your lovely kind of messages because it was, it's been very, very supportive and nice.

Adam (04:56): Though research is an interesting topic in itself and the academic grounding, because what we're about to do is talk about sustainability, and neither of us are sustainability experts.

Georgia (05:08): Yeah. That's a big thing we wanna bring to this co... like yeah, we really, we—

Adam (05:11): We're gonna go into our...

Georgia (05:12): All the disclaimers. Let's do the disclaimer dance, disclaimer...

Adam (05:17): We're going into a super hot topic, which is probably gonna be quite triggering for some people.

Georgia (05:22): Spicy – yes.

Adam (05:22): And we are gonna share our opinions on it.

Georgia (05:26): Well...

Adam (05:26): I, well, I should say—

Georgia (05:28): And peer reviewed literature.

Adam (05:29): You're quite right, Georgia. Georgia has turned up with a number of large files of notes and actually academic articles.

Georgia (05:37): I actually... the irony of printing for the episode on sustainability.

Adam (05:40): Yeah. I have turned up with a warning for Georgia that fact checking me is gonna be a pain in the [baa].

Georgia (05:47): Yeah. I'm not looking forward to that. I might actually get you to...

Adam (05:50): Fact check myself.

Georgia (05:51): Yeah. What I might do is just sort of send you a list and go, "Yep. I want sources for all of these claims, please. Thank you". 'cos I ain't doing it.

Adam (05:57): Or listeners can just listen to you as a academic source of truth.

Georgia (06:02): Oh my gosh.

Adam (06:02): And then, and then me as...

Georgia (06:04): I'm not allowed opinions—

Adam (06:05): The dip[baa] on the side.

Georgia (06:09): I mean, at least you are the one saying it.

Adam (06:12): I don't—

Georgia (06:12): I'm sorry. That sounded so cruel. That was much crueller than—

Adam (06:16): No, I'm fine. I'm fine with being some just idiot chatty bimbo.

Georgia (06:21): You can be the "I'm the chatty bimbo". I like the idea that I'm the blonde woman academic, and somehow you are the chatty bimbo. I really, that's a nice table turn. I enjoy that.

Adam (06:32): I'm not sure. I think that's a firmly established a number of episodes back. You are literally the one with the credentials and the passion for academia. And I've just like talking—

Georgia (06:42): Well, the passion for craft, I don't know. The passion for craft—

Adam (06:47): Passion for academia wanes at the end of a PhD anyway—

Georgia (06:49): Isn't it? That's the passion and not passion for craft, but passion and craft... for anyone who saw my viral video, about "What is craft research?" The funny example I gave in the middle of, when craft shows up in all these random places.

Adam (07:04): Yes.

Georgia (07:05): And it was Passion and Craft: Economists at Work. Yes. But disclaimers. As Adam says, we, neither of us are sustainability experts. I don't work in sustainability. You don't work in sustainability. But I think, with the global crisis that we are facing environmentally, we all have a duty to be conscious and aware of these things. So this is partly why we are willing to have the conversation despite not being experts, because everyone has a stake in this, and it's important. So when I am bringing things to you and Adam is bringing things to you, we are not experts. I have done my best and there is so much variability in when you're trying to get into the nitty gritty. There's so much variability depending on different studies, how different people have measured things, and. So with… craft is a hard, is a hard area to talk about sustainability.

Adam (08:04): We're just gonna get into it. But before we do, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm gonna pause for two seconds because I'm gonna just go get a tissue to blow my nose and I'm really sorry.

Georgia (08:10): That's fine. Wait, are you sitting on a blocking mat?

Adam (08:15): In order that I can sustain myself through the podcast, I do have to be able to sit on a chair that doesn't make my legs numb. And I think you've got a comfier chair. I, well, for me, that's a comfier chair, but this one isn't so much. So I put a blocking mat on the chair.

Georgia (08:28): I think it's an excellent idea. I mean, I'm not complaining. I'm not accusing, I think it's a very, you didn't buy another cushion. You used what you had.

Adam (08:36): It's a sustainable choice for my blocking mats, I've also cut up my blocking mats and like, I use them with all sorts of, anyway, we digress.

Adam (08:44): You wanted to start by defining sustainability.

Georgia (08:47): Well, that's a big thing because sustainability, it's not a protected term right. There's so many different, places that it gets used. When I was looking around sources, generally speaking, the definition that people most referred to was from the Brundtland Commission, by the UN in 1987 (McManus, 2014) (Jarvie, 2016). And it pops up all over the place as like this is a commonly accepted definition for sustainability. And it's "meeting the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs". So I think it's both succinct and broad at the same time.

Adam (09:28): I mean, if you pull out the generations, then it becomes a much wider definition for sustainability as well. Because when I think about sustainability, one of the, I'm, it's particularly hot topic for me at the moment, but people talk about my ability to be on Instagram as a sustainable practise, but that the same thing that's true's, like what you're doing now. Does it impact on your ability to continue doing it? Yeah. That's a—

Georgia (09:49): Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. And I think it's interesting the part of that where it's meeting the needs of the present. Because I think sometimes people can feel almost like making sustainable or environmental choices are depriving themselves so much in the present for the promise of the future, of future generations, that it can almost feel discouraging to be making sustainable or environmentally conscious choices in the present, because they're not necessarily meeting whatever needs that they've got for themselves right now. And I think sometimes people can be a bit off put by making environmental choices because they see it as a deprivation for their current selves.

Adam (10:30): Well, that's, I think that's a difficult thing. I think sustainability is a complicated topic and the, one of the really hard things about sustainability is that you get some hardliners within that. And I fully appreciate the need for that as a mental state to be really hardline about it because that's, that's what drives a lot of the progress in the argument. But it also sometimes makes it very unapproachable for— What's the point of trying to take a more sustainable— You know, if you're telling me that any transport is unsustainable, then what's the point of me even trying to go to, rather, I'm not gonna fly. I'm gonna try and take a train. If a train is still bad, what's the point? So I might as well fly and it's like, there's some nuance within there about, well be informed about it and maybe just take a, you don't have to go the whole hog, you don't have to grow all of your own vegetables and all the rest of it. Not that's necessarily a sustainable choice either. Like that all of it's so nuanced. But it's, and it can also be super overwhelming for people that there are too many difficult things to consider. And therefore the whole topic becomes alienating.

Georgia (11:43): Yeah. And it's when you're talking about like hard liners as well and recognising the sort of the necessity of that within a culture or society. So this isn't something that, I looked up before this, and it's something I read about years and years and years ago. It's an idea about activism within society and how it's a theory, I think it's called like ripple effect something, something to do, something to do with ripples and sending ripples through society.

Georgia (12:15): So the idea that if you have a certain percentage of people engaged in big activism, so thinking things like Extinction Rebellion, that kind of stuff, that whilst like you say, it could be alienating to a lot of people, it could be difficult to engage with. People might not get it. This theory kind of talked about that it had a then a ripple effect through society (Hornsey et al., 2021). And actually, if we think about it in that way, I'm not stating an opinion either way on how I feel about Extinction Rebellion, but if you look at how the last, I don't know, since five, 10 years? The five, 10 years since I read this, I think I read it around the time I was in my undergrad. There were lots of people I went to university with who were getting involved with protests and climate change things. And it was, Greta Thunberg was very much of the moment and I remember reading about this ripple effect thing at the time, and actually in the time since then, the last, I dunno, five to 10 years, there are huge changes in what we can expect as consumers, what we can expect in society (Chenoweth, 2020).

Adam (13:22): That also makes me think about animal rights, which, if you look at animal rights activism, through the eighties and nineties, there were... I mean, now you would look at a lot of those actions and think that they were extremist in terms of the way that people took militant action against very large corporations. And that action was, in some cases it's illegal. But on the other hand, you can see the way in which that impacts corporations view on animal rights because it takes things out of just, "Oh, well, let's have a closed discussion about X, Y, Z"—

Georgia (13:58): I mean, it was once illegal for women to vote.

Adam (14:00): Well, the, yeah.

Georgia (14:01): You know? Yeah. And that's not me supporting the horrible...

Adam (14:04): Women's votes. Sorry, you left the door—

Georgia (14:08): Votes for Women.

Adam (14:09): You left the door open too long, Georgia.

Georgia (14:11): I hope that through our general... this is, oh, this is just so tricky, tricky territory because you could sound bite so many bits of this conversation, I'm sure. And then you could be like, "she supports terrorist action". Um, I don't. I don't believe that things should harm people, but then, oh gosh, I'm going in circles here because animal rights activists might say them, "but you hurt animals". So it's really difficult on the on... right. So veganism.

Adam (14:36): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (14:37): This is my little segue out.

Georgia (14:38): I was vegan for three years. I dunno if you know that about me. About—

Adam (14:41): I didn't know that about you.

Georgia (14:42): Yeah. So when I was 17, 18, I had a friend of sixth form who was a vegan and everyone loved talk to her about, "Oh, but what about your nutrients? And what about this"? And she was very calm, collected, very clever cookie. And she just would deliver like responses and say, "no, that's not actually true". And, blah, blah, blah. And she was very, we were in, religious studies like philosophy together. So she was, she was like into her sort of, animal rights. Philosophy stuff as well. I've forgotten the name of the, what I'm thinking of is that Paganini (Baggini, 2005). No, that's totally not the right thing, I'll see if I can find it. Doing a bit of a Georgia and almost wanting to find out that, well, obviously you can't get with your nutrients. It just became a logical choice. For me. And then my dad sort of also was trying to do the same thing of like, prove me wrong and then was like, "oh, this actually makes a lot of sense". And he's still basically been plant-based since, for almost a decade. And the environmental impact of it, the animal perspective of it all makes a deal of sense, and so I can get on board with that. Right. How do, how do I do this? Um, so for various personal reasons, I am not vegan anymore relating to former history of disordered eating and difficulties around that kind of thing. And so I realised that I could be majority plant-based around things, but didn't need to do it full time. And that having like a hard restriction was not a good personal choice for me, right? But I remember, this is where I'm going with this. When I first went vegan, so I was 17, so that was 10 years ago. There was not vegan stuff in Tesco, like vegan cheeses. There was not stuff widely available. I remember basically having a party when, like the cheese, the vegan cheese place opened in London, Fauxmagerie (La Fauxmagerie, 2026) I now get like a vegan Christmas hamper from them every year for vegan cheeses like it, the climate has completely changed. There was like one vegan restaurant that did vegan, vegetarian things in the city I grew up in. It was not common and it is a completely different climate now. And that is so much driven through consumer choice.

Adam (16:48): Absolutely. Yeah.

Georgia (16:48): And I remember my mum saying to me years ago, like the eighties, nineties, she said she remembers being a teenager and going to Holland and Barrett to buy whole meal bread because you couldn't get it from like a normal supermarket. So, it just, it just goes to show that like the world does change with choices.

Adam (17:05): And now whole meal is pushed out by sourdough.

Georgia (17:07): Yeah. Yeah. Gosh, that's so true.

Adam (17:10): Consumer trend. I want to link up there with, animal welfare because I'm thinking about your definition, but I'm thinking for me... the wool I use is so important. I'm just gonna go straight back to the fibre choices we make. I don't really think about the wool choice from a sustainability point of view when I buy it. And that's probably my background behaviour in that I don't, I probably don't think about things enough. I think about it sometimes and selectively like you with food, like I don't, it's something I'm very conscious of because it's been a pattern of behaviour enough that broadly I don't eat much meat. And when I do eat meat, I think carefully about which meats I'm eating. Like steaks are a super special occasion for me because beef is such high carbon impact relative to any other protein source.

Georgia (18:01): Yeah. Like we don't cook meat at home basically. Partly. 'cause I just had all those years of not cooking it that I just don't even trust myself to do it. And—

Adam (18:09): Well you get, you get used to the fact that you don't need it.

Georgia (18:12): Yeah.

Adam (18:12): But I think where, where it is more a consumer choice is where, where you have fibre choice. I was really interested in researching for this podcast about the difference in different world around the world and their carbon impact and their sustainability impact. And there are two different things there that I really want to talk about. One is the carbon impact of material choice, and the other is the impact on livestock and with the cruelties involved, I specifically want to talk about mulesing and whether or not that's a sustainable choice. I'll just jump in and explain that 'cause I don't leave a word hanging that's not well understood. But mulesing is a practise, where... so it kind of comes from a problem of really woolly sheep and merino is one of the woolier sheeps that you get. It produces a huge amount of wool and basically has been selectively bred for the purpose of producing a huge amount of wool and the finest merino wool in the world— So the wool takes on some of the characteristics of its local environment because obviously where the sheep are affect the quality of the wool they're producing. And so you get different kinds of merino wool depending on where the sheep are raised. But the place where the biggest sort of wool producer in the world, or certainly in the seventies got to was, was Australia. And that was, they produced, I think it was about a quarter of all the wool that got used in the world was from Australia at that point.

Georgia (19:47): That's crazy. I had no idea that, I know that it had big...

Adam (19:49): It's a huge industry.

Georgia (19:50): Which just seems a bit topsy-turvy 'cause it's Australia. I get that there are reasons why, right. But from, I'm just speaking from the instinctive point of like, "huh, Australia... quite warm. Why do they have lots of sheep?" So Adam, please continue.

Adam (20:02): But that it gives a problem because the sheep in Australia then when you are raising them for wool, there's a particular kind of fly that lands on the sheep lays its eggs and when the eggs hatch, the larvae eat the flesh of the sheep. So it's awful for a sheep if they, if they get, "fly strike". So farmers develop the practise of keeping the sheep clean by when the sheep are very young, when the lambs are young. Sorry, this is gonna, this is trigger warning. This is not a nice—

Georgia (20:37): Yeah and we can, we record a trigger warning in a bit and then just put at the beginning episode between like, "oh yeah, we do cover like, mutilating sheep and eating disorders".

Adam (20:47): Well, it's an interesting, for me it's interesting because, and it comes back to animal rights protests because animal rights has helped change this practise in Australia, but, and I, it's done in other places too, but in Australia, you take some of the skin off the back of the sheep around its bum and around its tail, which is where the skin stays more moist and folded, which, which is what allows the flies to lay their eggs. So that's, if you want to say that there is a cause that is that or that is part of the process that happens. What happens is the, is the sheep forms scar tissue when that heals and the scar tissue pulls flat, doesn't grow any wool and is, and is tight and dry, and therefore the sheep from that point onwards just produce wool over the rest of their body for the rest of their lives. And from then on are, are not immune, but basically don't get this awful condition. And it's a controversial practise, obviously, and a lot of wool when you buy it, will say "mulesing free" because they want you to know that doesn't happen. It's interesting because I think farmers would argue that they are maintaining farming animals for wool as a sustainable practise. And that the way they are making that sustainable is that they are helping the sheep, which they are. I think that used to be done without anaesthetic, whereas now it's done under much better conditions in order to, because animal rights obviously do get involved in these sorts of things, and they change the conditions for the animals.

Georgia (22:29): Yeah.

Adam (22:30): And so in the long run, that does change it. But in terms of a sustainable practise, you have to question humans in the first place for taking a merino sheep, which is a massively woolly sheep into that environment. And whether, if the sheep can't naturally survive in that environment, is it necessarily the right sheep for that environment?

Adam (22:50): That's one of the, I suppose, more controversial areas in sustainability and in wool. But you can't get away from the fact that it also produces extraordinarily fine wool. And Australia produces some of the best merino wool in the world. You know, if you want to look at sustainable practises, the value of the, of Australian merino wool is much higher than other places. And you can still farm for wool in Australia, which you can't do in the UK. So in the UK is a complete opposite to that. Our wool is generally so low valued for most sheep that it costs more to take it off the sheep than to be able to, than to take it away. So farmers get less money for the wool that they take off sheep than it costs them to actually have the sheep sheared.

Georgia (23:42): Which is just kind of crazy.

Adam (23:43): It is crazy. And it's also in terms of sustainability, it means that part of owning a sheep isn't sustainable. The part that is sustainable is that you're selling it for high value meat.

Georgia (23:55): Yeah.

Adam (23:55): And then wool becomes a byproduct. But it's a waste product at that point rather than a byproduct.

Georgia (24:01): So what you're saying is that we all need to knit more jumpers to increase the demand and then increase the value of wool, and then it will all get better and people will stop eating sheep.

Adam (24:13): Well, so yes, absolutely.

Georgia (24:18): It's a spark notes version. My little bit of like, not—

Adam (24:21): I'm just going off on my massive rant now. No, no. It's a—

Georgia (24:24): It's a good rant.

Adam (24:25): If you go back to the sixties, wool was 10% of all clothing. And if you look now, it's less than 1% of all clothing and most of that compression of wool out of the market has been done by polyester and acrylic. Because they are industrial processes that lend themselves enormously well to scalability. And you have huge plants making polyester and acrylic, and similar materials, which are priced in such a way that you just cannot compete with wool. And therefore, wool is not an economic choice. And so wool has to be only used in very valuable clothing because it can't compete. I think it's tragic.

Georgia (25:11): I wanted to pick up on one thing that you did say there, just for, to be devil's advocate here, where you said that Australia produces like really great merino that it's like fine, fine wool. Fine wool was the term you used. that, I mean, that's aesthetically, like aesthetically materially high quality. But I suppose that's the thing is for many people who are really opposed to these practises, that means that it's not fine wool to them. Yeah, it could be if you looked at it purely from a material objective perspective, like, oh, this is fine wool. But I dunno, if you look at the whole package of something, it's not detached from its, ethical environmental considerations. What do you think about that?

Adam (25:55): I mean, I think I'm very supportive of educating people to understand about where their stuff comes from. I remember having stark conversations with my children to make sure that they understood when we visited a farm that the animals that we were seeing were the animals that they would eat. A choice to eat meat. We are, they do eat meat. But I want them to understand that is an active choice. That there is a life and a death to an animal. And that, if you are participating in eating meat, that is a, that is a consequence of what you're doing. 'Cause I think it's a really important... that's part of being conscious as a consumer. You know, if you choose to wear a fur coat, and I don't think that's a choice that many people take these days, but if you do choose to do it again, it's something that I think you need to be conscious of what's, what goes into that.

Georgia (26:57): If you're a knitter and you are really like anti mulesing and you would would never buy wool... I mean, wool's not gonna tell you, it's not obligated to tell you if it's they've used mulesing. Right. So they might say that they don't, and you can also kind of read between the lines or you could figure it out, right? Am I right in saying that? I don't know. But I don't think they're obligated.

Adam (27:18): A lot of, I will say a lot of wool will say mulesing free. In for that, for that reason. And that's what's calling for it.

Georgia (27:25): It's like, by process of elimination, I mean, do we get to a point where, because it, this practise is really common in Australia, that the rest of the world then feel that they need to put it on there because people think—

Adam (27:34): Oh, a hundred percent. So, for example, South American, most merino sheep in a lot of, sorry, I dunno that it's most Marino sheep, but a lot of Marino in South America is grown, is raised rather at altitude. And the, and the sheep are in cooler conditions. And they aren't subject to the same attacks by these flies. And therefore it's not required.

Georgia (27:57): Yeah.

Adam (27:57): And so the, like, mulesing is just not a practise—

Georgia (28:00): But then...

Adam (28:00): But, but they absolutely have to label mulesing free or you'll find that, do you know, I want to grab some balls of wool just to see whether it says mulesing free now.

Georgia (28:10): Yeah.

Adam (28:10): But it's, it's, it's one of those things in a consumer industry, in my practise, in the world of health supplements, we used slogans 15 years ago, 10 years ago, we were the only person making the claims. And then what you see is that everyone else picks up on, actually, we need to say that too. Or we need to validate ourselves against that standard and people change it and they, that changes over time. There's a big problem in wool is there aren't many internationally recognised standards for that. And Woolmark is, in the UK is different to that in that it does… There is a certification process, but the UK's kind of fairly unique in that. And a lot of wool is moved all around the world from, comes from different places.

Georgia (28:53): I just wonder if like, someone could feel really, really strongly about one, about mulesing, for example, but then at the same time, like you're saying about taking your children to a farm, for example, and saying like, this is a conscious choice. These are animals, and acknowledging the fact that this comes from, a farm. And the process that it takes to get from farm to table... That's a slogan, yeah, the process that it takes to get from farm to table, and also like how kind that is and the ethical practises that are within abattoirs, whatever else. Um, gosh, audience-wise, I don't wanna go into too much brutal stuff, but what I'm, the point I'm trying to get at is... if on the one hand you're really passionate about finding good yarn, but then you're also, eating meet, then you're not being as diligent about checking how that animal life has been ended or whatever else. I think that sometimes, for me... I mean, look, everything around sustainability carries cognitive dissonance, right? Because we all have our areas of fixation of like, okay, I really, really wanna make environmental impact in this place, in this area. And so any effort towards making informed ethical choices. I don't think that there's any issue with that, and I don't wanna criticise anyone for making those choices. But in the same vein, I think it's just, it's almost really important not to, shame or criticise other people for those choices. Do you know what I mean?

Adam (30:25): No, I don't, I don't have a problem. Like I don't have a problem with people taking that decisions. I don't mind what other people choose to do. That doesn't bother me.

Georgia (30:33): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam (30:34): Like I, and I like if, because I can see the argument—

Georgia (30:37): Wait, am I triggering you?

Adam (30:39): I don't think, not yet. Like I, but I think if someone wants to take a decision, a consumer based decision that is theirs to make, and I can understand the argument that someone would make saying, well, from, from the sheep's welfare point of view in Australia, the only way that those sheep can have a happy and fulfilling life, and they are given a happy and fulfilling life... Otherwise. Is that practise goes ahead and then you know that those sheep wouldn't even exist otherwise. So you, they are given life by that process. I wouldn't judge, someone wants to buy a particular kind of eggs from the supermarket, whether they're free range, grass fed, organic or, or versus any other practise that is someone's choice to do that. And it can be based on the values that they have in life. It may be linked to their sustainability values. It may also just be economic. And that's fine too. Like everyone has to take decisions or rather you also get decision fatigue and frankly, that is a really difficult thing.

Georgia (31:40): Exactly.

Adam (31:40): And sometimes you just need to forget about stuff and just get on with your life. And that's where sustainability for me often gets in the way of that.

Georgia (31:46): There is something with craft, the kind of craft identity. I sometimes call it like a craftification, I need to figure out which one of these terms someone wrote down. But within marketing, like things can really carry like a craft label. And craft again is like sustainability. It's not a protected term, but people often really instinctively connect craft and handmade with this is environmental, this is sustainable. And often that isn't actually very connected. But I mean, even just from the basis of, if you have a, a handcraft practise, and we mostly talk about textiles crafts here. Like if you are really into that. And that's your passion. And you spend the time thinking, I want to make informed choices for this thing that I spend a lot of time doing. That me and my hands are on this yarn. I am thinking about this yarn, spending a lot of time with this yarn. It's almost the perfect place to invest the time in thinking, in making those sustainable choices. Like if you've got that decision fatigue of like things all over the place of life is real and it's hard to make sustainable choices all the time. You're never gonna be able to make the best choice in every situation right? But actually our crafts, be that as a hobby, be that as a career, whatever else. I feel like craft is a place of intention quite often for people.

Adam (33:05): Yeah.

Georgia (33:05): Where they can make that kind of choice... actually no, that's opened up a can of worms, 'cause I'm thinking about all kinds of [baa] in my head—

Adam (33:12): I'm going yeah. Well, I'm sorry. I'm going for it now 'cause you said it, but I—

Georgia (33:14): Ah, that was, I was just ahh...

Adam (33:17): I think that people truly believe that you are getting into a totally wholesome craft and everything about it is just wonderful, eco and sustainable. But if you look at the numbers for just a very, very simple baseline of what is the carbon involved in wool. If you're buying pure wool versus if you're buying a ball of acrylic, you are not necessarily doing any less carbon emissions if you're buying wool (Vandepaer, 2024) (Nautiyal et al., 2025). They can easily be equivalent. And it can be possible depending on where the wool comes from. That the wool is responsible for higher carbon emissions than acrylic. And I don't, I think that's probably a surprise for most people, because I think acrylic people think about petrochemical processing all the rest of it being high carbon, but it is also incredibly efficient. Whereas if you are rearing wool, then you have to have an animal alive for a really, really long time. That's farting methane out. And that is not, that's that—

Georgia (34:20): I mean, that's one of the reasons people couldn't, well, they can't get their head around eating meat as being so environmentally impactful and it's because the animal is alive for a long time.

Adam (34:32): Yeah. And a cow can fart an awful lot in two years it. And that's why chicken and eggs are a low carbon source of protein because the chicken doesn't live very long. I get kind of wound up by the, by people that think of craft as a, or are, are knitting craft or fibre arts in general as like ultra sustainable, 'cause I don't think, I don't think the sustainability comes from fibre choice necessarily—

Georgia (34:58): I think the point I was trying to make here is not that "oh well, all crafts should be made with wool and we can make the more sustainable choices". It's more that I think that it's the perfect place to have these conversations and to actually interrogate what it is that we're doing with the materials that we have. So, for example, like acrylic, the environmental impact of acrylic versus wool. But then you have to think about like the life cycle in terms of, okay, well, what happens if I throw this away? Is this for something that I'm gonna throw away? Do I want wool because then it will be, it will be able to break down? It'll be biodegradable with the right kind of processing.

Adam (35:32): When you wash acrylic or something like that, then you do create more microplastics.

Georgia (35:36): Yeah.

Adam (35:36): And some people are anti microplastics. I would say to those people though, what do you have on the soles of your feet? Because most shoes have some sort of plastic soles. And as they wear, like, if you look at a pair of shoes you've worn for a year— The soles have, have worn down. What do you think has happened? You've made microplastics. I mean, it's not escapable.

Georgia (35:52): No. I mean within water supplies, I suppose that's a big consideration for people and that's valid. But, speaking of soles of shoes, I'm a really big fan of Community Clothing, which is like, Patrick Grant, who's the guy who lots of the listeners will be swooning, the guy on Sewing Bee. So I don't watch Sewing Bee. But, I forget how I even found Community Clothing. I think it was because I was looking to find some kind of intentional purchase thing and everything is made within the UK. They sell a lot of basics, really, really well made, long lasting. So particularly their socks are now the only socks that I can bear to wear.

Adam (36:34): Oh.

Georgia (36:35): They're wonderful. Wonderful.

Adam (36:36): Amazing.

Georgia (36:37): And I also converted my dad onto these socks as well. Got him some for Christmas.

Adam (36:40): I'll have to give these...

Georgia (36:41): They're amazing. Amazing. The sports ones. We've talked about socks before.

Adam (36:45): Yeah.

Georgia (36:46): And they're so nice and they are holding up, lasting a really long time. There's a lot of things within the company, they don't do Black Fridays or yada yada...

Georgia (36:54): So Community Clothing make trainers. Deems got a pair of them recently. He's very much one of these like wears a pair of trainers till they are completely worn through and he'd bought a pair before that was supposed to be from a brand that we're gonna last a really long time. And they, was a couple of months and they were completely worn through. We were on a hunt for something that was gonna be a bit more long lasting. Community Clothing, had a collaboration with Walsh, who are like a British trainer maker for like a long, long time. Really cool, bright, gorgeous primary colours. He looks like he's going to school. They are adorable. They're holding up beautifully, very well, made gorgeous. I was thinking, okay, well. My trainers are good for now, but maybe when they wear through, which is probably a way off. I could maybe look at Walsh trainers. Walsh trainers are made with rubber soles, which a lot of people go, oh, that's great environmentally. I'm allergic to latex. I can't be having those, the rubber soles. One of those things where medically, I've been told you always need to treat an allergy of some kind seriously enough, but generally reactions haven't been so bad, so Deems' trainers aren't currently like, making me break out in hives and anaphylaxis. But I, it just, I've gotta be careful about these kinds of things. And there are reasons that not everyone can make all the choices. And I realised that a lot of the times that I'm looking for these sustainable things or plastic free things, they've got latex in them or they've got rubber, natural rubber.

Georgia (38:15): So there's all kinds of reasons. I mean, wool for example, wool, people often talk about like, "oh no, I'm allergic to wool", and there's various people who say that's "not true, you're just itchy" or "you need to try a different wool" or whatever else. My grandmother who passed away last year, genuinely, she was near wool and she broke, like she had a rash all over her skin, like a genuine rash. When she was very poorly and she had dementia, and she couldn't communicate very well, or couldn't communicate verbally at least, she was given a twiddle mitt by her...

Adam (38:52): What's a twiddle mitt?

Georgia (38:53): So twiddle mitts are... some of our listeners would probably be familiar with them. So it's like an occupational therapy thing, where, someone who is having tremors or difficulty with their hands, they might be able to either put their hands in the twiddle mit. They're often knitted or crocheted by, teams of volunteers, and different organisations. There's like a tube of knitting and sometimes there's different buttons on it, so people can use their scraps and different textures and people sew different bits on it. And it can, it can be really helpful for people when they're, they need, some kind of sensory stimulation, or something to protect their hands if they're like pulling at rips and stuff. You know, really beautiful project, beautiful thing, but they're knitted with all different kinds of wool and yarn and stuff, and you can probably imagine where this story's going. She was given the twiddle mitt just after I'd been up to see her, I went up the next month and she'd been having like really itchy hands and, had probably been in a lot of pain not being able to communicate it. And she'd had this twiddle mitt and my Grandad hadn't remembered maybe 'cause it's just not something that she ever communicated to him. She was of a generation that maybe didn't explain to her husband why she didn't wear wool stuff, but me as her granddaughter, we'd had lots of conversations about it. And so finding out that actually this twiddle mitt was potentially actually really itching her skin and it wasn't good. So I knitted up her one in acrylic and I went and bought some acrylic. I dunno, there are different reasons that people have to use different things and cost, like you said before, is a huge thing in that. I just don't think it's fair to shame people for, "oh, you're using acrylic, that's not environmental choice". When actually we don't have concrete enough data on hand knitting and the environmental impact of hand knitting.

Adam (40:31): I would say by far, by far the bigger— sorry, I realise I'm interrupting you, but by far the bigger impact is whether or not that item is going to be used for a long time. And I've got sitting right over there and I can see it. It's in my eye line. I picked out at the weekend, I went round to my mother's house and we were talking about my grandmother who knitted. And I learned something new about her as a knitter because I found out also she had machine knitted as well as hand knitted. I didn't realise she had a knitting machine at home. Um, but that jumper over there that is up on the side and hopefully...

Georgia (41:10): It's beautiful—

Adam (41:10): By the time we publish this. Hopefully this will have been on my Instagram feed, but that's coming up probably for 40 years old as a jumper and it is still in lovely condition and it is still cherished. Now there is a huge sustainability argument here because you can have a woollen jumper, which is used for 40 years and you can repair it, and I think if it's made with love and you care about the fibre and everything about it is loved. It will have to be repaired and it, all the rest of it. That could be true for acrylic too. Like if something, and in fact it was because one of the knitted items was a machine knitted, and I think it was probably bought from a shop, but it was a blanket that I remember from my childhood. I remember as a toddler that was a play blanket, but it was made of a absolutely made of an acrylic wool mix. But it was absolutely matted together and in a terrible state. But I know that mat was used as a play thing for me, my brother and my sister for, probably a decade and in intensive use with children. And so was that a sustainable thing? I mean, the fact that my mother kept it and cherished it and you know, has demonstrated that it doesn't disintegrate over time like that's sustainable too. And I think the, the bigger argument for sustainability is about whether or not you participate in something like fast fashion. And that for me is where craft is a, there's kind of no question... but I always think about when, when someone says, when someone asks me about sustainability and knitting, I think about, rather than trying to compare if I'm knitting with wool to polyester or whether I'm knitting super wash versus non-super wash. And I want to talk about that, but that's not the choice I'm thinking. I'm thinking what else would I be doing with my time right now?

Georgia (42:58): Yes. Exactly.

Adam (42:59): Now, if I'm gonna be sitting, reading a book, maybe sitting reading a paperback, but I don't even know the answer to that. But maybe reading a book is a more sustainable, or if I got it from the library, that's probably a more sustainable thing. If my hobby is, I don't know, go-kart racing or something, or there are many other things that I could do as hobbies, which are way less sustainable. And I think that is where the sustainability choice is way more important. I mean, by all means take the decision consciously within, within your craft or within your space. But I think those are much more impactful decisions. The one big thing that I think that may give craft people, certainly knitting and crochet an exit from is fast fashion. Because if you participate in fast fashion, if you're buying fashionable jumpers from cheap brands, or it doesn't even have to be cheap brands, expensive brands. If you regard clothing as kind of disposable in that way, in that it's a new season, you'll make, you'll buy something new because, because of how that looks. Knitting it in yourself because you, I think partly because you're forced to spend so much time on it becomes a more cherished object.

Georgia (44:15): Yeah.

Adam (44:15): And therefore the longevity is likely to be there. Which makes it a more sustainable choice.

Georgia (44:21): Well, this is, this almost links back to our conversation about mistakes and one of the reasons that I go back and will fix mistakes. We were in the pub last week. And you know that cuff where I said, oh, I'm not sure about it. I went back and I redid that cuff and I'm really happy with it. I'd done some decreases to bring my cuff in and I hadn't done the decreases quickly enough. And I was asking the group that we, the Rogue Yarn Club, I was asking everyone like, "Oh, I don't know. I dunno if I should go back and redo this. I don't know". I'm so glad I did go back and do it because actually that means that is gonna be a jumper that is cherished and I love, rather than something where I'm like, oh, I wanna knit another one or knit one similar because the, I don't quite like the cuff and then I don't really wear it. And all of the yarn and the environmental impact of having knit that is kind of kaput really. Just for the sake of going back and fixing something and being intentional with the materials that you have is an important thing and important consideration.

Adam (45:18): Yeah. I mean, but I would also say, I am absolutely not a, like, holier than thou on that because I also know that there are a couple of things that I've knitted where I probably won't ever wear them again. Because I made them, and they were important for my learning knitting journey. For what? Confidence or challenge that I was setting myself, that I was trying to do. I've made them and now I don't actually like them and—

Georgia (45:43): Well, yeah.

Adam (45:43): And I keep them as objects, but, but I'm not ever gonna wear them. And that isn't, I mean, that isn't, you can't say that's a sustainable practise, but what is possibly more sustainable and is that I gave myself an activity to do, which was productive, was good for my mental health, was good for my long-term existence, was good for my education, so. You know, to what extent does that— How, how does that play into sustainability? And that's, that's partly what, why I get riled up about sustainability.

Georgia (46:13): It's pros and cons. And I think everything within this sustainability conversation is weighing up things for individuals. It's weighing up choices, it's weighing up individual circumstances, be that financial circumstances, be it, preference, be it allergies. There's so many different considerations and there is not a universal right answer. If there was a universal right answer, we'd have one type of yarn. And we don't, we have so many different types of yarn and, we have so many different climates. I mean, you go to a yarn shop in Spain.... last week, we talked about travel. I was in Spain like a year, two years ago. And, mostly cotton yarns. Like a huge selection and choice of cotton, linen, light yarns, as you would expect in a summer warm place.

Adam (46:57): Yep.

Georgia (46:58): And it was exciting 'cause I was like, wow I don't really normally get this choice because I live in a relatively cold climate and we have so many different types of fibre and types of knitters around the world that you're just not gonna have a right choice for everyone.

Georgia (47:11): I know this just probably sounds like a cop out, but I think it's also part of the reason that we don't have definitive answers for you, is because when it comes to handcraft as opposed to industrial processes, there isn't robust research on the lifecycle analysis of the materials and environmental impact of our practises. There just isn't because from what I can figure out, a lot of it is to do with, the industrial financial interest of this research. So in terms of... There will be industry interest in finding out how industrial textiles, how impactful they are for fast fashion, for buying things. I found lots of studies about knitting machines, knitting on demand, 3D, seamless garments, lots of stuff there. But if you look for specifically hand knitting, you're not gonna find that because they don't have the same kind of industrial regulations you know, we as individual knitters don't have government regulations saying, we need to know how much carbon you are making in our bid for net zero. So we don't have that data. I don't want to completely scapegoat this, but I just think that we are in a position where we need to have compassion for each other and people's individual choices.

Adam (48:25): I know that I've been a little bit more ranty in that I've also talked about some more controversial topics, but I suppose I want to go back to a more, sustainable and one quite exciting example that I found. People are probably aware listening to this podcast that I've tried a lot of different ways to make money in the world of knitting, and I've looked into lots of different things.

Adam (48:44): One of the things that I have done, is done some research into animal husbandry because I mean, who doesn't love alpacas? And I've looked at—

Georgia (48:54): What?

Adam (48:54): This is me—

Georgia (48:54): You never told me about the alpacas.

Adam (48:57): So I—

Georgia (48:58): Are you gonna have an alpaca farm?

Adam (48:59): We are probably, well, probably not is the answer. Oh, you're so heartbroken. But, and the, and the reason is. I find this fascinating. You know, obviously alpacas exist as wild animals in South America and are, are very happy there. If you bring them over to the UK then they take a little bit more work and you've got to get 'em the right feed because they're not, like grass isn't, isn't quite good enough for them. You need to supplement their feed. If you look after alpacas, the average cost of the sort of as animal husbandry, so the feed and veterinary bills for a year roughly, roughly, can equal the value of the fleece that you can take from an alpaca in a year. That means that, and you might think about, oh gosh, well that's potentially exciting. But you're not getting paid from that.

Georgia (49:48): It's a labour of love.

Adam (49:49): So, so you are not getting any money from that? That's, that is that It is cost neutral. An alpaca can pay for itself, but you get nothing from that.

Georgia (49:57): But then you get an alpaca.

Adam (50:01): Dima if you're listening. I'm really sorry.

Georgia (50:03): No, we've already discussed this. He already sees it as a potential in our future.

Adam (50:06): You know, interestingly, so there's a, there are a few alpaca, there are a few alpaca farms around, and one of them that, I mean, I love and I've knitted with their yarn is Burnt Fen alpacas. I'll give them a shout out, is B-U-R-N-T, Burnt Fen um, which is not so far from Cambridge. I mean, in the grand scheme of the world.

Georgia (50:27): Did I buy some-? I might have got something from them recently...

Adam (50:27): Yeah, they're East Anglia Yarn Festival.

Georgia (50:29): Yeah. Yeah.

Adam (50:29): And one of the ways that they do make it a sustainable practise is that they have on site you can learn weaving or you can learn dying, or you can do yoga with alpacas or you can take the alpacas for walks. And that's how you make alpaca farming sustainable in the uk is that you have to...

Georgia (50:48): Financially sustainable.

Adam (50:49): Financially sustainable. Yeah. and, then it becomes a sustainable practise. But it's a hard thing to do. And again, that's because you know, the value of wool is. You know, is low. Unfortunately. Oh my, I didn't even get to talk about, like, I'm, I'm conscious of the time and I didn't even get to talk about why—

Georgia (51:06): Episode Two.

Adam (51:08): It does feel like we have to—

Georgia (51:09): Go back. Episode. Wait. That'll be episode 18. Can you believe 18 episodes?

Adam (51:15): It's a lot, isn't it?

Georgia (51:16): I know, it's crazy. Well..

Adam (51:18): What am I gonna do? Shall I shut up now and should we, shall we go on to another episode? Yeah. Yeah. I've got so much more to say.

Georgia (51:23): I know. There's so much more to, I say so much more. So I say, you say, I say, I have to say on paper. I, sorry—

Adam (51:31): We haven't even got to your 16 binders that you're keeping under the table of all your other notes and references.

Georgia (51:35): Shush. They were supposed to be a surprise. I haven't even got to my forever whisk story.

Adam (51:40): No.

Georgia (51:40): There's sorts of stories that I haven. I think there's gonna be three parts. No, no, there won't be. We will just, what did I tell you?

Adam (51:46): I said—

Georgia (51:46): I, well, yeah, exactly.

Adam (51:47): So I guess we are wrapping up there, because we are running outta time.

Georgia (51:50): Yeah.

Adam (51:50): But thank you so much for listening. We would say that if you found this interesting, then maybe share this with a friend.

Georgia (51:56): Or enjoyable? I mean, interesting and enjoyable? We just get so many lovely comments and diehard fans who message us, comment saying how much they love the podcast. And actually we'd love to grow the Yarn Library community and to share the conversations that we have far and wide.

Adam (52:12): So if you, yeah. You don't have to find it interesting and enjoyable. It can be one or the other—

Georgia (52:17): Or any other feelings.

Adam (52:18): Or you can say—

Georgia (52:18): You could even do a hate share.

Adam (52:20): Yeah. You listen to this awful episode, and these two idiots prattling on about—

Georgia (52:25): Non-sustainability experts talking about sustainability. How could they?

Adam (52:28): Using their unjustified platform for nefarious purposes.

Georgia (52:32): Yeah. If everyone who was listening to this podcast shared it with two friends. If you have a think now and go, "Hmm, I wonder if this person and this person might enjoy this podcast". And if you were to share it with them. Though critically, also share it with them from past the Game of Wool point 'cause we do have a lot of new listeners who go to the beginning of series one and then go, but I don't wanna, why—

Adam (52:54): Am I listening? It's not topical.

Georgia (52:55): Well, it's not topical, it's not current. So...

Adam (52:57): I would also please ask you to share this in the most sustainable way possible. And for me, that probably is writing it on parchment.

Georgia (53:04): Carrier pigeon.

Adam (53:04): Yeah, carrier pigeon.

Georgia (53:05): Yeah. That is, that is not verified. That is not referenced. I've not done a life cycle analysis of carrier pigeon. I imagine it's not actually very sustainably okay. But there we go.

Adam (53:19): What size hole should we dig for ourselves now? Should we just end it?