Travel

Georgia (00:00): I think that's for people with conventional ankles.

Adam (00:03): Your eyes are saying, Adam, that was an inside thought.

Georgia (00:05): We weren't really cool enough to when we were 18. So...

Adam (00:07): Sorry. I don't know why I just nodded then.

Adam (00:12): Welcome to the Yarn Library podcast with me, Adam Cleevely—

Georgia (00:15): And me Georgia Denham, it is a very nice, to be in the Yarn Library.

Adam (00:20): We have Georgia, who's visiting us from the Netherlands.

Georgia (00:23): Yes. Uh, I did my Erasmus there, several years ago, and, very much enjoyed, being there. And now, I'm coming to you, from Cambridge in the Yarn Library.

Adam (00:35): I am absolutely filled with joy!

Georgia (00:38): Because, what is the, topic of the episode? Uh, today?

Adam (00:42): The topic is travel, Georgia. It's—

Georgia (00:44): Travel.

Adam (00:44): Is Georgia your name or do I need to refer? Do you have another name when you are—

Georgia (00:48): Janus? Janus? Yeah. No, it's not Janus, actually, no, that's my, that's my office mate's name. Um, anyway, yeah, so I'm sorry if that offended anyone. Uh, didn't mean it to. I say that from complete like adoration and love. I wish I was Dutch. Like I have, I've read the Dutch citizenship rules so many times 'cause I'm trying to find a loophole, some way of making that happen for me. Um, I think I was meant to be Dutch and then just wasn't—

Adam (01:18): Shame.

Georgia (01:19): I dunno. I feel very much at home there and as a place. And, yeah, we are talking about travel today, which involves going to different places, which is why I, it's not why actually at all. I just suddenly reached for Dutch today.

Adam (01:31): I'm going to immediately jump in and ask you if you've been to Stephen and Penelope.

Georgia (01:35): Yes, I have.

Adam (01:36): Oh, brilliant. Yeah. Well, that's sort of spoils my story.

Georgia (01:39): No, I have, I didn't buy anything there. I went round and there was, so, so it's, for anyone who doesn't know what, what is Stephen and Penelope?

Adam (01:47): Stephen and Penelope is a yarn store. Uh, it is a very famous yarn store because it is, it's partly run by Stephen West.

Georgia (01:56): Mm-hmm.

Adam (01:56): And,

Georgia (01:57): And who's Stephen West?

Adam (01:58): Stephen West is a knit...

Georgia (02:00): Don't laugh. We have a broad audience. Not everyone is a yarn, yarn adjacent.

Adam (02:04): I was on, on my yarn retreat last week. There were, there was at least one person there who didn't know who Stephen West, West was. I'm obsessed with him as a designer because I. Think what he does with textures and colours is so amazingly powerful. And I just think it is, it, I feel so moved by so many of his—

Georgia (02:26): Mm-hmm.

Adam (02:27): Designs and there's so much of like what he tries to do that I find myself trying to, copy or imitate, just be, and I, yeah, I have a world of, but, but because he's such a big figure for me who I follow, then it means that I, yeah. I naturally fall into that terrible trap of thinking well, everyone must know who he is.

Georgia (02:46): It's all differences. It was all differences. I found out last night that, Dima didn't know what licorice all sorts were.

Adam (02:54): I mean, there's the tumbleweed.

Georgia (02:56): Okay. Sorry. I didn't know if you, the tumbleweed was there because you were like, what? How did that happen? Yeah.

Adam (03:02): What, what are licorice? All sorts Georgia. Um, I do know—

Georgia (03:04): Bertie Bassett. My grandma used to work in a factory packaging them. So—

Adam (03:08): Ah, amazing.

Georgia (03:08): I was, yeah, I'm very into Bertie Bassets.

Adam (03:09): Did you get seconds all the time?

Georgia (03:10): Yes. We did? And I would only eat the pink ones, so I was explaining that to Deems last night.

Adam (03:14): Oh. I think ones were good.

Georgia (03:15): So when I was born, I was too big for the scales. I was born at home—

Adam (03:17): Uhhuh.

Georgia (03:18): And the way that they knew how roughly I mu- much I weighed was 'cause my Grandma held me in her arms and went " she's about the... she's, she's bigger than a, one of the trade packs of Bertie Bassetts. She's bigger than one of the kilos and like, I forget how big the bags are. I'll find out and put it in the... Should I, should I Harvard reference my, the story about...

Adam (03:38): I don't, I don't think you need to.

Georgia (03:39): ...Bertie Bassets bags?

Adam (03:39): I think this is your...

Georgia (03:40): The sentiment. Yeah.

Adam (03:41): This is some PhD paranoia coming through here. Sorry, d... for anyone that's not aware, Georgia's studying for a PhD at the moment.

Georgia (03:48): Oh gosh.

Adam (03:49): And also giving me withering looks every time I bring it up now.

Georgia (03:51): No, it's fine. I just don't wanna cancel myself, Adam. Okay....

Adam (03:54): I just, it's pure joy for me. Thank you. Thank you for being here, Georgia. And then—

Georgia (03:58): Travel, distract him very nicely with the Dutch voice. So you should, talking about Stephen and Penelope.—

Adam (04:04): Absolutely.

Georgia (04:05): It was a very nice shop, in the, in the Netherlands, in Amsterdam.

Adam (04:09): It's an incredible shop and, but but also like it's a destination because so many people, follow Stephen West and then want to see like his little bit of the shore (sp) store.

Georgia (04:21): Yeah.

Adam (04:21): Originally it isn't his store. Everyone thinks about it being like Stephen West store, but actually he, so the owner, the original owner was Malalia, and the shop was a place where Stephen would go and would sit and knit a lot and. Because he would sit in there and knit a lot. That's where they sort of joined forces and became a bigger and bigger thing. They now, they're now in their third store, 'cause they've got, they started small, went medium, and now it's very big. Um, but yeah, that's, it's one of my lovely travel stories is because I took my three children to, Amsterdam or Amsterdam—

Georgia (05:01): Amsterdam—

Adam (05:02): Amsterdam, I guess 18 months ago.

Georgia (05:05): Mm-hmm.

Adam (05:06): Um. And like when I taking three children around trying to get all the sightseeing, lots of museums, all the rest of it done. I, they were sort of wondering then why I allowed them. I very carefully chosen the route towards Stephen and Penelope and just made sure. That we went to an ice cream store immediately beforehand and that when they said, oh, can I have one or two scoops, please? Can we have two scoops? I was like, you have as many as you want. Like two, three scoop ice creams, and they just thought it was Christmas and hadn't quite clocked the, why are you doing this Dad, who literally come out, children, like with fistfuls of ice cream, walked around the corner and like—

Georgia (05:42): Sticky children in a yarn shop!

Adam (05:43): Oh no, no. They don't want to go in like, oh, so I just left, I said. Like we got to Stephen and Penelope and I just told them right, you lot stand out here and have your ice cream. I'm going in there.

Georgia (05:54): Oh my god.

Adam (05:55): I know they're safe on this street. There's three of them together. They know I'm inside. They've groan at me, but they can't groan that much 'cause they've all got ice cream.

Georgia (06:03): Ice cream.

Adam (06:03): And I like, I absolutely love like. Because you get to see whenever you travel, like I'm always, my children know that because they don't want to see me on Google Maps looking for where the yarn shops are. I've done that beforehand. I know exactly where they are. I link them in my brain and I'm like. I plan the map out. Yep. So that we can randomly come across them like, oh, I didn't know there was gonna be a yarn shop here. Let's just pop in here for a minute.

Georgia (06:28): Yeah.

Georgia (06:42): I was talking to Dima about this once, about how like local yarn chops, when they don't necessarily s. Stock, like local yarn that if you then have like tourists going in that they'll be looking for something special. Um, and like Cambridge is a really touristy place, right?

Adam (06:47): Yeah.

Georgia (06:48): And we don't actually have many places that... I mean, I love our local yarn shop, really, really. Really love it and, good friends with people who work there and they've been trying to kind of branch out and have more stuff, but for a long time they didn't really have like, local yarn stuff or things that were like nice pretty skeins—

Adam (07:06): I've talked to 'em about the same problem.

Georgia (07:07): Yeah.

Adam (07:07): And because they want. Tourists come in saying, I want local Cambridge yarn.

Georgia (07:12): Yeah, exactly.

Adam (07:13): It's not like cheese or something. It's unfortunately, like Cambridge isn't an area where you raise sheep because the, like most of the farmland around Cambridge is super fertile and therefore lend itself to like agricultural crops instead of livestock. Whereas you got to Yorkshire and you've got different kinds of terrain where sheep graze very well.

Georgia (07:37): Yeah,

Adam (07:37): Because basically you've got thinner soils and so on and it's grassland—

Georgia (07:41): But so many like hand dyers and stuff, they don't necessarily have wool that's local. They, but they might get something dyed locally. And they get the base from Yorkshire.

Adam (07:49): That's the whole question about where—

Georgia (07:51): Well...

Adam (07:51): How local do you want?

Georgia (07:52): Well, I have a funny one about that, but carry on.

Adam (07:54): It's difficult, like if you import the yarn from, I say you get it from the Andes in South America, but you lo it's locally dyed in Cambridge.

Georgia (08:03): Mm-hmm.

Adam (08:03): Or what if it's locally spun in Cambridge or locally? Like where, what, which is the bit that's local that has to do it? If it's a eight skein kit and I, or I put those eight balls together in Cambridge, I've made the kit in Cambridge.

Georgia (08:16): Yeah.

Adam (08:16): Then, then we get into—

Georgia (08:17): Patterns, Cambridge patterns, fair trade practises, which is a, a whole other mm-hmm. World that, Yeah. I mean, my reason for mentioning the Cambridge thing was that Adeem sort of said, really, are there like people going into yarn shops looking for things, and I sort of looked at him funny and went. What do we do every single time we go to any other place, in any country, anywhere?

Adam (08:39): Well, I tell you what he does, he switches his brain off whilst you're going into those shops.

Georgia (08:43): He's a crochet man now. I think he's enjoyed going into yarn shops so much and seeing my joy and then seeing all the cool stuff, and he's now, he's like fully in. He's all in now. He's into Tunisian crochet. He's into crochet. He's, he got his, I got him a card deck of the crochet stitch, the crochet stitch card deck thing. Um, he's been working his way through that. He's working on different projects. He is, he's a crochet man.

Adam (09:10): I'm wondering if this is un modified Stockholm syndrome. We wanted to talk about Stockholm, didn't we?

Georgia (09:17): Well, I suppose, he's always loved origami, but like the really intense detailed one that where you sit for hours and do like weird snowflakes with like pressing.

Adam (09:26): Is that where kigami? Kigami is when you cut it with scissors as well? I think—

Georgia (09:31): Yeah, some of that, but also there's ones where he'll, like for Christmas as a present for someone, he'll. Um, if you take like a bit a sheet of, or gumpy quite a big sheet and you fold it in like loads and loads of ways where then, then you get, you have to get like a small, like, scraper or something, fold like a folding tool.

Adam (09:51): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (09:52): And then it pop, you'd love it like pops out so you don't cut anything, but you are just folding it in this kind of really geometrically intense way.

Adam (10:01): Huh.

Georgia (10:01): Where it starts to then you can like reshape it to be 3D because the folds like fold to itself in this piece of paper. And so he's got into crochet on this like deep geometric level. And, I think he's gradually convincing his other like mathematician nerd friends that crochet is the way forward.

Adam (10:19): I feel like there's a loss for knitters there, but at least he's in fiber arts.

Georgia (10:22): We need some relational, like we need some separation. Yeah.

Adam (10:26): Fair.

Georgia (10:26): Yeah.

Adam (10:27): So we were gonna talk about travel.

Georgia (10:28): Yeah. Travel. So yeah, going around to different yarn shops. You mentioned Stockholm there.

Georgia (10:40): Which actually does tie in with the funny yarn thing about, is it locally, is it not? Um, I went to Sweden. I seem to remember looking at the time. I did not check my sources before recording this episode, but I seem to remember there's something about like, yeah, Sweden doesn't actually have a lot of sheep. Like, they don't really have like a, a as much of like a sheep tradition of like yarn and wool. There's certainly a lot of knitting there, but, it tends to be Norwegian or Icelandic or, Denmark has a lot of yarn. Um, but I was passing through Stockholm and... so a lot of the yarn shops that were there, we were there in sort of like around summertime. Loads of them were closed for their summer house time, and it wasn't necessarily on the websites or anything. So you just got there and there's like a note in the door and in this glorious yarn shop and you can—

Adam (11:27): Oh, it's a shame.

Georgia (11:27): See it all just hanging and just gorgeously and then. You scan this little translated note thinking. Are they saying they're in lunch for five minutes? No, they're away for five weeks in their hütte, I mean, that's Norwegian, but um, yeah, so that was sad, but I think I was like thinking, oh, well it's a Scandinavian, it's a Nordic city that of course there'll be some kind of knitting for olive situation. And when there wasn't necessarily, there were a, some really gorgeous small shops, but not that many. Um, and then I ended up going to one really lovely shop that was so nice. And then. Was looking, going there thinking, ah, is this, so is this all Swedish? Is this all local? And this is before I kind of knew like, nah, we don't, we don't really do that. Um, the yarn was from Yorkshire—

Adam (12:16): Amazing.

Georgia (12:17): And it had been, but had been dyed in Sweden. And so I was buying like Swedish died Yorkshire base wool to then go back to the UK with it. I was about to say fly, but actually that was one where we did it all like on land. It was a bit of a rogue interrailing trip.

Adam (12:36): Oh, you went back round by train?

Georgia (12:37): Yeah.

Adam (12:38): Oh, that's cool.

Georgia (12:38): We never went interrailing 'cause we weren't really cool enough to when we were 18. So...

Adam (12:42): Sorry. I don't know why I just nodded then. That was a n....

Georgia (12:46): We were too...

Adam (12:46): I wasn't acknowledging that. You are not cool enough. I was acknowledging I know what you mean.

Georgia (12:50): All the cool kids were interrailing. So like the cool kids we are, we decided to do it when we were 26 years old. Which was, it was weird. We had this like duality of like staying in grownup hotels and then also sometimes staying in these like tiny, like really dingy places. And then those nights I'd just be like, I can't do, I can't do this anymore. I'm too sweaty. Um, and then...

Adam (13:09): Take me back to my spa hotel.

Georgia (13:11): Yeah, exactly. So, that was a weird mix. And then we got to the end of it, of having moved around for two, three weeks and I was like, we've spent just as much money as we could have spent. It was like supposed to be like a budget friendly, fun trip. But because I'd gone to so many cities, that meant I had to go to so many yarn shops that, between like all of that and then just having to live off McDonald's in seven different countries, because we were so exhausted and we were arriving at weird times, so we probably had McDonald's in like seven countries or whatever the local equivalent was. And then I spent so much money and we were like, nah, nah, this is, we are never doing this again. So—

Adam (13:50): Fair enough. Well, I mean...

Georgia (13:51): It was fun though. It was fun.

Adam (13:52): Interrailings once in a lifetime.

Georgia (13:53): Yeah.

Adam (13:54): The, your, your experience in Sweden though, in a way opposite when I went to Norway. It was back in February. That must be two years ago, maybe three years ago. I dunno. Um, but I remember being so delighted 'cause I went into a train station there and over in the corner I saw a yarn shop.

Georgia (14:14): No way.

Adam (14:15): But it was a massive yarn shop as well. Like it was, it was probably one of the biggest and best yarn chops I've ever been into.

Georgia (14:23): Oh goodness.

Adam (14:23): In terms of like colour selection and like, needles and notions and everything that I needed.

Georgia (14:29): Mm-hmm.

Adam (14:29): Like, it was, it was just really, really surprising. But it's, it was just, I guess that's why wouldn't you have a yarn shop in a train station.

Georgia (14:37): Yeah. Where it's a, common enough that people want to pop in on the way home from work or...

Adam (14:43): Yeah. Or you're about to sit on the train for a while and you forgot you are knitting or you need an extra ball of something, or...

Georgia (14:48): It's quite a good place, even just to go for yarn, like it is a destination place. Wow. I that is combining a lot of my joys, trains and knitting all in the same place. Wow.

Adam (14:58): It's make, it's making me want to go to Scandinavia and—

Georgia (15:01): I need to do that now—

Adam (15:03): On some long train journeys. The one place I travelled for yarn where I was surprised in the opposite way—

Georgia (15:10): Mm-hmm.

Adam (15:11): Was when I went to Iceland.

Georgia (15:13): Mm. Yeah.

Adam (15:14): 'Cause I didn't know anything about Icelandic yarn and I'm a bit of a nut for all the different fibres. Um, and I hadn't realised, 'cause I didn't do any research. That's not my, that's not my vibe. I just, I just—

Georgia (15:29): Well...

Adam (15:29): I'm just going to roll into something and see what happens. Um, and so off I went to Iceland and. Then like immediately found out that all of the yarn there that isn't imported, all of Icelandic yarn is from one breed of sheep. Because it's all, because it's all locked in. That's the, you're not allowed any other breeds of sheep on the island.

Georgia (15:49): Mm-hmm.

Adam (15:50): Because the island that they're very careful about what—

Georgia (15:53): The flora—

Adam (15:54): The exactly. The flora and fauna.

Georgia (15:56): Mm.

Adam (15:57): So, yeah, that's it. It's Loy and that's it. And you can get it spun in different ways. You can get it in different colours, but that was—

Georgia (16:05): Yeah, I'm really sad that I haven't been to Iceland whilst being a knitter.

Adam (16:10): Yeah.

Georgia (16:11): 'cause well, so the Adam knows this. I'm realising now that actually I'm not just saying this to Adam, so Adam knows, my, ex-boyfriend from when I was at my undergrad, was Icelandic.

Adam (16:27): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (16:27): And, from like next to, Reykjavík in Kópavogur and um, which is like one of the sort of suburbs as Reykjavík kind of, spans out. And his grandmother is a really amazing knitter and like knit all the family jumpers and stuff. And she even make made one for me. And so I have this Icelandic jumper.. And I, knitting wasn't really on my radar as an adult at that point. Um, so I didn't really get to like engage with the knitting culture there, which is really like very much a strong knitting culture. Um, one of our, like we, our podcast is, we've got a, a fair amount of listeners in Iceland actually. So, hi.

Adam (17:09): Hello. Everyone in Iceland.

Georgia (17:09): Góðan daginn! um, and, yeah, so I've been there like five or six times and like, know quite a lot of stuff about it. It is weird. I was like full. I mean, the relationship didn't work out in the end. That was like, how do I say this?

Adam (17:29): You were still swatching—

Georgia (17:30): Swatch? Oh my God. I mean, yes, I was, I was still swatching and, I was trying to say, how do I say this in a nice way where I'm like, yeah, I broke up with him, yeah, it was a while ago now, but I was so, so in love with Iceland that whenever I encounter like Icelandic things or I think about it or I look back at old photos, just at how much I was at home there. I mean, similar in the Netherlands, I think being like a tall, blonde person, like I can go to either of those countries. It was like the first places I could go and like not get catcalled—

Adam (18:05): Naturally, naturally just fit in because—

Georgia (18:06): Yeah, exactly. I just, I felt very much like—

Adam (18:12): Quite literally your people.

Georgia (18:13): Yeah. Genetically speaking, it's just such a beautiful place and I was full on in like, I'm gonna get married, move here and have babies, and we'll be Icelandic. And then wasn't, and there's like a, weird grief for me that I didn't get to be an Icelandic knitting lady. Yeah, at some point I'll maybe wear that jumper here. And then... I almost feel weird wearing it now as a knitter because I feel like people go, oh my God, did you knit that? And I have to be like, no. it was like my ex-boyfriend's grandma? Um, so—

Adam (18:40): And I can't, I can't not have it.

Georgia (18:42): Yeah. Like—

Adam (18:43): My brother asked me to, so I. Um, I knitted a Icelandic jumper. My brother, before I went out, he said, if you're going to Iceland, he had a, an Icelandic jumper. Um, I think he'd acquired it through a romantic connection as well.

Georgia (19:00): Oh.

Adam (19:01): Earlier in his life. And he had mislaid it, or you know, it had been lost for years, but he remembered the warmth of it. And what he loved about it was the pattern, the feel of the wall, all the rest of it. Like it worked for him. And he said, if, if, if you are going, I would really love you to make me an Icelandic. Wool jumper, an Icelandic pattern.

Georgia (19:25): Mm-hmm.

Adam (19:26): And, my also requirements are the jumper that I had was too warm, so can you make me one that isn't too warm? And that was fascinating for me because Icelandic jumpers. So then I would, then I was talking to, I went to a hundred yarn shops and you know, obviously, talking to all of the people about like, how. Those jumpers are, are made basically with different numbers of strands. You basically knit the same pattern, but with different numbers of strands depending on the use of the jumper, whether it's for, mild outdoor use or whether you are literally gonna be standing outside in the cold in it.

Georgia (20:04): Mm-hmm.

Adam (20:04): In winter, in which case, it's made with enormous amounts of yarn in every strand.

Georgia (20:10): Yeah. Like I have two Icelandic jumpers, technically speaking. Um, and they're both very different, different kind of vibes. And one of them I would wear much more often 'cause it was more of a, like a Icelandic summer weight kind of light one that... That one wasn't knitted for me, but it was actually my, then boyfriend's one from childhood, like teenage years—

Adam (20:32): Mm-hmm

Georgia (20:32): That then it kind of gave like a girly cropped fit. So, the thing is that when my, then like the, when Amma um, as in the grandmother, made this amazing jumper for me by my measurements. She made it in this very grandmotherly way where it was gonna cover all my kidneys and like be very sensible and very thick and like wintry.

Adam (20:56): Yeah.

Georgia (20:56): But then it wasn't like the most flattering thing. It's like gorgeous and really beautiful. But I kind of lowkey preferred wearing the other one 'cause it was more like light and fun and breezy. Um, and when the, sorry, I realised that you were fully explaining jumpers and, sorry—

Adam (21:14): I, this time, I'm, I'm totally remembering the second half of the story.

Georgia (21:17): Okay. I'm gonna tell it.

Adam (21:17): Don't

Georgia (21:17): Worry. Yeah, yeah.

Adam (21:18): Keep going on your tangent.

Georgia (21:19): Sorry, my tangent. Um, no, just, you've reminded me that I had the two jumpers and I suppose the other funny part about this is that when we broke up.

Georgia (21:37): I was like, really in my minimalist era. Um, and really didn't have a lot of things. And when we sat down to like do, I mean we were only in uni, but like we were living together. We did like a division of the assets, sat in the garden and we were like, okay, let's do this peacefully. Let's figure out what you want. And the only thing I wanted was his teenage, jumper. And it, that was like a big ask actually, in hindsight, like taking his jumper that was knitted for him when he was a teenager by his grandmother was like a big thing. But he got like everything else. He got all the speakers, he got all the... I just like, "you can take anything else. That's the only thing that I'd really want".

Adam (22:05): Well, it's, it's interesting if you, if. Historically, if you go back in like Eastern Europe and into Russia in, and you go back, I dunno how far you'd have to go back in time. I suspect it's not that long, but fur coats were obviously so valuable that they were written into wills.

Georgia (22:24): Yeah.

Adam (22:26): I wonder, I wonder to what extent that is, that's would be the case in knitwear. Exactly.

Georgia (22:30): Well, I suppose there's... knitwear, I suppose in Iceland and like knitting. I wonder how much is an ubiquitous thing that actually then it—

Adam (22:38): In Iceland, because so many people do it. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm sure...

Georgia (22:41): Yeah...

Adam (22:41): Prob well—

Georgia (22:42): But they are things that you can pass down. I mean, I totally get you on the fur coats and the warmth things. I mean, my in-laws are Siberian and Vladivostok vibes. So yeah, cold weather.

Adam (22:52): Vladivostok is cold, that's from personal experience.—

Georgia (22:55): Oh, fancy.

Adam (22:57): I was, I was just trying to work out, how am I gonna drop that in there?

Georgia (22:59): Oh, did you?

Adam (22:59): I'll just, I'll just say it.

Georgia (23:00): Did you hit up any yarn shops while you were there?

Adam (23:02): I didn't. I was very much younger and I as a foolish young child, I wasn't into, into knitwear Ah, in quite the same way.

Georgia (23:09): Sad times.

Adam (23:10): Sad times.

Georgia (23:10): Where have you travelled for? Oh, you, oh, your story!

Adam (23:14): I'm gonna get back to my story because, oh.

Adam (23:15): I can't contain it any longer, Georgia. Okay. So because it was, it's a custom garment and I love nothing more, that's not true. I really love, I really enjoy being able to knit something custom for someone that they say, I want a hat that feels like this. Or I, and or here is a scarf that I wear and I don't want it to be like this because of this problem. Like a feature of the fabric or a feature of the, of the, how the yarn feels or whatever. And this was exactly it with my brother. We looked at patterns together in terms of what he found visually attractive so I could understand his aesthetic. But also there was this temperature problem. And basically what I got down to was, how do you make an Icelandic jumper with Icelandic wool from the smallest amount of fibre? Because Icelandic wool has a real problem in that it absolutely just pulled apart.

Georgia (24:02): Mm-hmm.

Adam (24:02): Because, 'cause it's not, when you're buying the big yarn cakes, it's not spun up. So it doesn't have. All of that, structure and integrity to it.

Georgia (24:14): Yeah. This is like a deliberate thing or it's a, not strictly deliberate, but it's just like by nature of the fibre, so, yeah.

Adam (24:19): Well, and also because when you're knitting, if you're knitting six or eight strands together, and that is common in Iceland, that you would knit six or eight strands together for the warmth of it. It doesn't matter that's not all spun into it.

Georgia (24:33): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam (24:33): But I, he was, I trying to work out whether I can knit for him with one or two strands and basically then you are into the very limits of what the fibre can do. And this lady in the shop said, well then what you have to do then the cheat is why didn't you buy a strand of, silk core mohair? Because that gives you all the tension, strength in the yarn And that will give the jumper longevity an absolute genius idea.

Georgia (24:59): Mm-hmm.

Adam (24:59): So that's, that's what his, his—

Georgia (25:00): I remember when you were knitting this, it was gorgeous—

Adam (25:02): And it's, it's so cool, but also like it has the, you can feel it as a jumper. It's not that weighty, it's not that heavy as a result because it's a mixture of Ian Moha. Mm-hmm. It means that he can, he really wears that jumper a lot.

Georgia (25:16): Mm-hmm.

Adam (25:16): He, yeah. And it's, it's great that he gets to wear it inside for a lot of the year rather than otherwise, our climate is too temperate. Really.

Georgia (25:26): Yeah. I think about that a lot with, like, knits about the applicability of them in different weathers, and I'm thinking, I saw something recently that was shared by one of the sort of big knitting pages on Instagram about like, origins of certain patterns that, we might. Uh, like from a Western perspective associate with like, oh, that's like an Icelandic style jumper. Or it's a Nordic, like giving Nordic vibes, like the sort of the yolk with all the, yeah, the kind of, how would you describe that? The triangular, like the pointy, pointy dangles.—

Adam (26:03): The pointy dangles.

Georgia (26:04): The pointy dangle yokes. Yeah. Um, sorry, that's, yeah, not the right term. Uh, not the right craft term for that one. Um, but actually it's connection and actually origin within indigenous communities in Greenland (Bertman, 2021). I think they'd refer to Greenland and possibly what would be described as modern Canada. And, yeah, I'd like to look that up and maybe put a link to it because, I didn't dive too much into the post. I think they were mostly just showing the pictures and saying like, actually these things have origins elsewhere in different communities. And I think it's an important thing to acknowledge and I found it really interesting as well. So really gorgeous, bright, bright coloured versions.

Adam (26:44): It's fascinating. And I mean, also what I love is I've seen some really modern interpretations of like the traditional, because in the traditional patterns obviously use the colours of the sheep as well. So you are off, that's, that's one way that you can, you can have—

Georgia (27:01): Well that was the thing in some of these designs from indigenous communities, they were really bright colours, but I dunno if those were more modern things or if they were like more traditional—

Adam (27:08): And it depends on the dyes that you have available.

Georgia (27:10): Available, yeah—

Adam (27:11): Available locally.

Adam (27:16): I mean, that was another thing about travelling in Iceland for a bit very briefly. I was talking about Stephen and... Stephen and Penelope at the beginning. That's the location of another of my like favourite ever yarn shops. Um, it was this beautiful room and the reason I loved it, like the overall. It wasn't the most beautiful place to be at all. And it didn't have all my favourite yarns in the world in it, but it had all the ingredients of like, this is the vibe, because it had, it was a, it was a big, big, big, big room outside of any town and in one corner there were all of these pots and pans, literally on a stove that were boiling away.

Georgia (27:59): Mm-hmm.

Adam (27:59): And the pots and pans were boiling away. All sorts of plants because that was that. That was making natural dyes—

Georgia (28:06): Uhhuh...

Adam (28:07): And then sort of towards another corner, there was a yarn library, like a collection of—

Georgia (28:13): Uhhuh...

Adam (28:13): All the different yarns and like a shop. And then there was another wall that was covered in like puzzles and sort of knick-knacks, but all of it was in this kind of homely kind of way. And there was a big table in the middle, which was like a big kitchen table.

Georgia (28:30): Mm-hmm.

Adam (28:30): And there were a couple of sofas off to the side, like. If I ever have a yarn shop, like if I had my dream yarn shop, it would be that vibe, but in the centre of Cambridge. Oh my gosh. And like, can you imagine?

Georgia (28:43): But like, that'd be so nice.

Adam (28:44): You just couldn't afford it. Like, I know that the rent for that, if you, if you transported the size of that into the centre of Cambridge, you'd be talking about something that would like, rent 150,000 pounds a year, 200,000 pounds a year is rent—

Georgia (28:57): That's a lot yarn—

Adam (28:57): And like, who's gonna sell that much?

Georgia (28:59): Yeah.

Adam (29:00): But, You could, you could just tell walking into it that it was both made with love and also—

Georgia (29:05): Mm-hmm.

Adam (29:05): It was just, it was perfect for what it was.

Georgia (29:08): It's reminding me of, when we in the rogue yarn club that you're very much a part of but didn't attend this retreat 'cause you were busy being Adam. Um, when we went to the Lake District last year at some point, and uh, one of our lovely friends who also kinda took on role of organiser found this amazing sheep farm (Crookabeck Farm, 2025).

Adam (29:30): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (29:30): Where the owner also had yarn both, she, I think she did hand spinning and then she, we, was weaving, she also had the wool sent away to be spun like by a, an actual mill thing. So you've got like really high quality, well spun stuff. I mean, hand spinning is also high quality, but you know what I mean? There was a full breadth, but it was all from her own sheep. And I think possibly there was some alpaca in there as well. And um, we met all the sheep and then we went to this, it effectively, it was like a little shed in the back of, kind of a manger style, like nativity scene. And then you went through this little door and there was just this room that was kind of, kind of cold because it was literally like an outhouse and it was just full of the most amazing yarn. And this lovely lady who was showing us around, I'll have to find the name of the place, she had all these amazing blankets. So there was one blanket there that I saw and went, "that's incredible. I don't need a blanket though, but I really, that's just the colours in it. Amazing". And I said, okay. Just don't, don't get it. And just, just walk around. Do a once round and see if you want it. And like literally, I did my little, just walk around this small, tiny room, just see if you want. As I was turning round one of our friends, very deservedly, and I'm okay with this and it's fine, went, oh my God, this blanket, I'm totally getting this. And then, and she bought the blanket of my dreams and I have big plans to, I need to like knit it or make it or something. It was so gorgeous, like the colours in it. Oh my goodness. Just one of a kind beautiful, like really bright purples, pinks, yellow. Um, and I'll ask, it's my friend Madelaine, and she does instagrammy things and I will ask if she will post a picture of it or like put it somewhere on stories or something that people can look at 'cause it's incredible (laine_made, 2026). It's incredible.

Adam (31:27): But that's, but I love, I, colours, colours, breathe new life as well into, into like old pattern designs as well. That's...

Georgia (31:34): Yeah.

Adam (31:34): That's one of the things about, seeing Icelandic knitwear or traditional Norwegian patterns or whatever.

Georgia (31:40): Mm-hmm.

Adam (31:41): Like, but, also then when people just put them in bright neon colours as well, I just think it's fabulous.

Georgia (31:47): Mm-hmm.

Adam (31:47): Or combining them, I just, I love that.

Georgia (31:50): I just think I've got this propensity to when I travel places, it doesn't even have to be craft specific travel, but I try and find a way to make craft happen.

Adam (32:00): Mm.

Georgia (32:00): It reminds me of like the mean girls thing where she's like, stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen. And that's me with craft. I go places and it's like I'm trying to make craft happen. Um, I mean, craft is happening, but I'm trying to find the craft and um, it doesn't matter where I've gone in the world. I'm always kind of like, is there a craft museum here? Is there, is there a yarn shop here? Um, I'm trying to not go to so many yarn shops, I think, 'cause I'm kind of content with the stuff that I have or the stash that I have. I want to try and pare that back, I think by being conscious of not over consuming.

Adam (32:32): Well one of the things for me with, with travelling, with knitting, so I mean, I have a variety of different experiences with it. One is, I was travelling in Zambia and Malawi. in fact, That's where I was knitting. I remember, that's what I love about travelling and knitting is 'cause I remember specifically the connection between the garment I was making at the time and the holiday memory that I have with it.

Georgia (32:52): Tell me you're a knitter without telling me you're a knitter.

Adam (32:55): So that was, I was knitting my pattern, Ziggy waves, because it was, it was knitted in sock weight yarns. It was nice. You know, it was, it was a, a scarf that is...

Georgia (33:03): Travel friendly.

Adam (33:04): Travel friendly. Exactly. 'cause that's an important consideration. A lot of curiosity when I would knit that and people would see it because it was a, like, there were two things that were unfamiliar about it. One is that wasn't a knitting part of the world, and then the second interest was that I was a... so I'm paraphrasing here, but very close to just saying it was a man doing a woman's task. Is how it was present- you. Like why are you doing that? Isn't making textiles and fibres.

Georgia (33:35): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam (33:35): And that was sort of like, I dunno. Interesting. I find that always I like having that conversation generally because I, because I'm quite literally giving two fingers to it, but—

Georgia (33:48): Mm-hmm.

Adam (33:48): But I'm also aware that like, there, there are bigger and more significant cultural differences—

Georgia (33:54): Mm-hmm.

Adam (33:54): That you're going, But I enjoy that everywhere I travel. I love. Like, 'cause I take knitting on trains, planes, and I, like every country I go to now, I mean, I don't travel without knitting ever. Like, I'll be walking into the office later this afternoon. I regard that as movement and therefore I've got my knitting with me.

Georgia (34:10): Sames, I casted on a, a new project yesterday, some socks 'cause I've not socks in ages. And I thought. I actually need a more travel friendly project because I've had a lot of, well, the things that started out being travel friendly have got too big to be travel friendly.

Adam (34:27): Yeah.

Georgia (34:28): And socks are one of those tried and true, like eternally travel friendly things. I will say though that I've knitted a lot of, so. Cuffs and maybe heels. I've had a lot of sizing problems with things because it, their travel and I tend to (knit) out and about. I lose track of like how long something is, and I will also say I've got, I've got really big feet and very strong ankles.

Adam (34:51): We've, we've talked about your big feet before our podcast.

Georgia (34:53): Yes. My feet strong ankles and I. Oh gosh. I mean, I started knitting those chicken socks I mentioned a while ago, for my dad, for Christmas. He's seen them now, so it's not spoilers. I'd already added like at least two chickens onto the maximum of the design and added like an extra thing. And he's got I. He's like, got buffalo legs, I mean, I say this with love. We are just, we are just strong legged people, the Denhams and um, and so it got on him, but um, my Granddad was there going, "is that not a bit tight?" Um, so I think I'm gonna have to knit this chicken sock again. I've decided to knit toe up socks, which I've not actually done because people have been saying for so long to me like, "oh no, no, it's terrible, it's terrible". But actually it's meaning that I can get a sense of—

Adam (35:38): The

Georgia (35:38): Right fit.

Adam (35:39): I a hundred percent of the sock I have ever knitted. It was a toe up sock. Yeah. Um, the one, I don't understand why you, I know people are gonna say and explain to me why it's top down, but, but from bottom up. You can then do it so it fits your foot and turn the heel at the point where you know it's gonna fit your foot.

Georgia (35:57): Yeah.

Adam (35:57): Rather than if you go the other way.

Georgia (36:00): I think that's for people with conventional ankles. I've knitted so many socks that have not come to fruition because I've had to abandon them because I've not, I know people say, oh, you can make, you can make adjustments and find your vanilla sock pattern. I've never got as far as finding my vanilla sock pattern, that can be my nice travel friendly project because I've, I don't, I'm not conforming to those standards. Um, yeah, standard arrangements for socks. So I'm really enjoying the process of like, actually, hopefully they're measurements that I can reverse engineer and then use for other sock patterns. If I go top down—

Adam (36:34): We're talking about this as we're talking about this. I'm thinking about my big problem with socks is that working on small radius so I just really hate it.

Georgia (36:39): Uhhuh.

Adam (36:39): And, but I was thinking actually, why don't you knit a whole sock. End to end instead.

Georgia (36:46): What you mean?

Adam (36:47): So as in you cast on from the toe up, halfway up your calf, that's where you cast on. And then you could knit a whole sock and then just rejoin it again.

Georgia (36:57): Wait, what?

Adam (36:58): On the other end?

Georgia (36:58): Toe to calf?

Adam (37:00): Yeah. So like rather than, rather than your rows being around your foot, the row goes all the way along your foot and up your, up your leg.

Georgia (37:08): I see. I thought that was maybe what you meant, but I thought. You know, are you really gonna avoid small circumference things that much?

Adam (37:18): Absolutely. I also, your eyes are saying, Adam, that was an inside thought. Which is, which is fair. Fair.

Georgia (37:25): I don't believe in inside thoughts. Um, oh. Oh. Sometimes though, when I get really passionate about things, it's late at night in my house. Dima does say to me "inside voices is Georgia" just 'cause and war are really thin. And I'm—

Adam (37:38): Amazing.

Georgia (37:39): I mean, you've been for like knitting specific travel as well?

Adam (37:44): I have, yeah.

Georgia (37:45): Probably more than me. Yeah.

Adam (37:48): Probably—

Georgia (37:49): Well, not even. Probably. Yeah, actually, yeah. Very. I've, I've done craft, specific travel, I think, related to research for my PhD.

Adam (37:55): I mean, off the top of my head, I haven't been internationally that many times. I've been to New York a couple of times for live, Iceland obviously. Um, I don't feel like I should mention 'cause I don't think we've talked about it, but I went to a yarn festival in Munich. Munich Knits.

Georgia (38:09): Oh yeah. A Munich knits?

Adam (38:11): Yeah...

Georgia (38:11): Tell me more about Munich knits. This for the...

Adam (38:15): I've done a podcast on it, Georgia—

Georgia (38:16): Original, original listeners of the podcast who enjoyed last season.—

Adam (38:19): I feel like it may have come up a couple of times in this season.

Georgia (38:22): Yeah, maybe. Maybe. I did, I did tell myself actually that maybe once I've finished. I think 'cause the whole time I've been doing my PhD.

Adam (38:30): Yeah.

Georgia (38:31): Sorry. Every time I say it now I'm, I'm, I'm expecting Adam to burst out laughing. This whole time has been so anchored down, I haven't really got to do much solo travel. Also during the time that I've been a student here, I met my husband, I moved in with him, like we got married and I realised more recently that I've kind of not been doing as much solo travel, and that used to be a real normal thing for me.

Adam (38:56): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (38:56): Like, I travelled all over Europe. I went to like Georgia O'Keeffe's house in New Mexico, like on my own through the desert on buses. Like I was very much a confident solo traveller and now I'm turning into, I mean, we don't drive, but I'm basically the travel equivalent of a passenger princess on a train. Not always. I do have to like step in and sort things out. Actually no I do a lot of travel admin, because I'm like really into trains. But I just, I haven't done so much solo interest travel. And my sister-in-law who's like a mum of two, super duper amazing, theatre director, amazing person. She kind of inspired me recently because she organised herself, a trip where she didn't take her kids and also didn't tell her husband where she was going. That was part of the plan of like, this is gonna be my thing that I do after this show is off my plate.

Adam (39:46): Yeah.

Georgia (39:46): And she went solo, in her forties, she took herself to Lapland.

Adam (39:51): Amazing.

Georgia (39:52): And she had the most amazing time, like Dima was getting all these videos and you know, she doesn't, really speak English, almost at all. She's Hungarian, speaks Hungarian, Russian. And she took herself to Lapland on her own for like, "I need to reclaim my solo fun pride". And she had an amazing time and I was like, "I need to do that". And I thought maybe I would go to Vogue Knitting Live when I finish writing up or do something like that where I can go to some kind of dream craft destination and like save up for it and then be like, "i'm gonna reclaim my crafty, crafty vibes".

Adam (40:23): Well, I am very much looking forward to the next one I'm going to is, Swiss Yarn Festival, which is in, I think it must be about two or three weeks away. I'll probably be like less than two weeks from when this airs.

Georgia (40:33): Where is that?

Adam (40:34): It's in Switzerland.

Georgia (40:34): No, but where in Switzerland?

Adam (40:36): It's in Zurich.

Georgia (40:37): Okay.

Adam (40:38): And I'm, yeah, I'm massively looking forward to that. I'm there the whole time and like a day before, a day after.

Georgia (40:44): Mm-hmm.

Adam (40:44): I will be, I'm there as their VIP Georgia.

Georgia (40:48): Oh my gosh. Look at you.

Adam (40:50): But like, that's also the thing I love about going to—

Georgia (40:53): Mm-hmm.

Adam (40:53): Yarn fairs. Um, like a, I'm get to talk to so many people and I get to, like, that's a magic thing.

Georgia (41:00): Mm-hmm.

Adam (41:00): So that's, I'm very much looking forward to that. But the one, the one place that's on my knitting destination, which I haven't been able to get to, and because I never think about it at the right time, and I'm way too last minute is Shetland Wool Week.

Georgia (41:13): Yeah.

Adam (41:14): Because that requires planning. It's now so popular like internationally, like by now, Shetland Wool Week's in second, third week of September, I think.

Georgia (41:24): Mm-hmm.

Adam (41:25): But if you looked now, I'm pretty sure you can't get places, travel all the rest of it, but it's my like, it's, it's absolutely bucket list number one.

Georgia (41:35): Yeah, I mean it's certainly on my would love to go list for sure. I mean I went on my honeymoon to Orkney and so just going to that part of the world feels very special to me and I'm always very drawn to it, and I think maybe, maybe that will be one of my—

Adam (41:50): Well, we ask, ask people—

Georgia (41:51): Solo ambition trips. We—

Adam (41:52): Ask people like, we've done surveys with people, for follower base through make a getaway for the retreat business that I'm running now. Sorry, not all of us can do PhDs, Georgia. Um, but like in terms of like popular destinations where people want to go—

Georgia (42:09): Yeah.

Adam (42:10): Scottish Islands and Scandinavia comes up really high. The difficulty that I have is like if you are running, like where, where the boundary sits between a knitting retreat and a holiday where knitting is a sort of side to what you do, 'cause if you're spending all your day. Doing things and seeing things that aren't knitting, then you don't get the knitting vibes. But anyway, that's—

Georgia (42:32): Yeah. Sometimes if your goal is, sorry I'm interrupting you. Um, but I get what you mean. Like If the goal is to go and knit and have time to knit, then going to a fancy pants destination might not be facilitating your knitting because you go and do stuff.

Adam (42:49): Exactly. 'cause you want to go and see all the things which you can't do at home. Whereas technically, I guess you can knit at home.

Georgia (42:54): All of this, these conversations is making me think of a really lovely book that I read. I listened to the audio book version of it, read I think by the author, a couple of years ago. It's called Knitlandia (Parkes, 2016). I think her name is Clara Parkes. She's, an amazing designer, writer around knitting and craft and she's got a couple of books that are sort of memoir style where she writes about her adventures and things in craft and knitting and stuff. But I think Knitlandia, it's got a lovely, very lovely illustration of a little car on the front with like her travel, like riding over these, roads and stuff and little mountains. And it's about her like travel adventures in knitting and like going to different places. And so some of the things like you mentioned about Iceland, I'm pretty sure that there's, a chapter on a visit to Iceland, and doing one of these kind of retreat, like, travelling around and going around on this coach trip and seeing all these sheep. Yeah. So it's a beautiful book and I almost wanna read it again 'cause it's so lovely. And yeah, I mean, I'd also, I had put my, like my academical hat on in preparation for this, this episode. Um, and we've kind of run out of time.

Adam (44:05): Yeah.

Georgia (44:06): But yeah. Um, I think. What I, one of the things I want to acknowledge at least, and maybe I won't go into it, but I can like leave them there, further resources. We've talked about like knitting shops in different destinations and things, but actually acknowledging how much craft is connected to local communities and particularly rural communities. And I've found a couple pieces of research and studies and things. One of them was comparing or like drawing together lots and lots of studies. So there's over a thousand, I think I read the number out to you earlier, it's like 1,300 studies that were looking at the impact of craft on development of rural areas (Fernández et al., 2023). Um, and so there you're talking about like craft, in relation to tourism quite often, but also like regional like skills, trades, all that kind of thing. Yeah, there's a couple of papers and things around craft and tourism that are very interesting. I'm thinking of one, Alanna Cant, who writes about like craft without skill (Cant, 2021). It talks about this particular study where like, she sees all these, these makers who are mostly creating things for tourists and like the tourist market and the art market and like, it's just, it's really fascinating when you look at that like layer of it and some people being really motivated to do that, for a pursuit of skill and other people just seeing it as like a cultural job that they've been born into.

Adam (45:28): Yeah.

Georgia (45:28): I also think, there's really interesting stuff. Um, so like, India is amazing, amazing for, craft research. So a lot of people working there. So craft in India is the largest employer, like of all industries, craft is the largest employer in India. Yeah. And so it's not economically the largest sector, but in terms of actual people's lives, because there are so many rural areas and so many traditional crafts, it's the largest employer. I just, that always blows my mind.... yeah, I just, I think acknowledging craft's connection to rural areas that it's a, it's a privilege to go into these communities, but also like tourism is a big part of, in the modern world of like how these things are, are carrying on, and, one of the comparative studies, that I'll link, they talk about how craft in rural areas sort of helps prevent against like depopulation (Venkatesan, 2010). So people moving out of rural areas. Yeah, it's, it's just something I want to acknowledge because travelling, going to all these like lovely rural places and, seeing all these sheep and yarns or whatever craft it is, like a lot of that is connected to often very poor communities in rural areas. There are some really great studies and things I didn't get to dive into, but yeah (Singh, 2021) (Singh, 2023).

Adam (46:42): I think we're gonna be coming back to travel in a future episode because I've got plenty more to say as well.

Georgia (46:47): Yeah. I haven't even talked about Chinese Craft Museums and like that is, that's a whole episode in and of itself, so...

Adam (46:53): So I'm afraid at that point I'm gonna say that's what we've got time for this week.

Georgia (46:57): Yarn Library.

Adam (46:59): Love our jingles—

Georgia (46:59): Off we go. I will actually make that into an official jingle at some point. But...

Adam (47:02): But thank you very much for listening. I've been Adam Cleevely—

Georgia (47:05): And I've been, Georgia Denham at uh, from the Yarn Library. (in dutch accent)

Adam (47:09): And that's the outro. Is it? Speaker: You've been listening to Yarn Library Podcast with Adam Cleevely at CleevelyKnits and me, Georgia Denham at Tulipurl. If you enjoyed this podcast, please like, share and subscribe, and if you didn't... shh – it's a yarn library.