Gifts

Georgia (00:00): You've got yourself to blame in this situation—

Adam (00:02): Mum's gonna hate that I'm talking about this, and I'm sorry mum—

Georgia (00:04): It's like being in a plane, like you put your own mask on first and then other people's.

Adam (00:13): Hello and welcome to the Yarn Library podcast with me, Adam Cleevely—

Georgia (00:16): And me Georgia Denham at Tulipurl on Instagram.

Adam (00:18): We were gonna do it the other way around this time.

Georgia (00:20): Oh yeah.

Adam (00:20): I was, I was gonna, you were gonna be Adam Cleevely and I was gonna be Tulipurl—

Georgia (00:23): I, it was very effective when we did that last week, I think last week we had a, a not quite the usual, introduction. We kind of meandered on a story that I couldn't cut out because it was then became relevant to the rest of the... yeah. We're actually back to normal, normal routine. We have a, we have an itinerary, we have a, an agenda. Um, of thoughts.

Adam (00:42): We do

Georgia (00:42): Some, some shaping of conversation.

Adam (00:45): I've even, I've even gone so far as to write some of those down in my book.

Georgia (00:49): I thought about printing one out for you as well, but I thought, no, actually I'm not gonna—

Adam (00:53): You know what my vibe is.

Georgia (00:54): Yeah. I'm, I'm not gonna force my brain structure on you. I don't think that's fair.

Adam (00:59): Fair enough.

Georgia (01:00): You know, there we go. But what is the subject of our conversation this week, Adam?

Adam (01:04): We are going to be talking about gift knitting—

Georgia (01:06): I wonder if we should call it. Gift gifts or gifting to acknowledge the fact that there's also crochet and there are textile crafts.

Adam (01:15): Gifts can exist that aren't exclusively knit.

Georgia (01:17): Yeah, exactly. Believe it or not. Shocking.

Adam (01:19): It's interesting you say that, but I'm gonna start this episode with this.

Georgia (01:23): What?

Adam (01:24): Because I have—

Georgia (01:25): No, no, you didn't. No you didn't. That's the one I don't have.

Adam (01:30): Is it?

Georgia (01:30): Yeah.

Adam (01:31): Oh, that's lucky. So for those of you listening, I'm presenting. It's, it's unwrapped—

Georgia (01:35): Wait is it—

Adam (01:36): There's no ribbon.

Georgia (01:36): It's actually—

Adam (01:37): It's actually for me, it's actually—

Georgia (01:38): For, you're not just showing it to me like, Jesus. Oh my goodness.

Adam (01:40): And look inside.

Georgia (01:44): Okay. Okay. Please give visual descriptors whilst I like stim a bit. Oh my gosh. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Adam (01:50): So I have just, at the timing of the episode, I've just come back from, Zurich where I was the yarn Festival. Again, I cry. This was the Swiss Yarn Festival. Uh, and I was, I saw Charlotte Stone there, amongst many other amazing knitters designers and teachers.. Anyway, I was, I was sat with Charlotte, but Georgia knew that I was gonna see Charlotte before I left and said, oh my God, you've got to say hello to her. If, Georgia's a very big fan of Charlotte. Not that I'm not, but Georgia is a very big fan of Charlotte's.

Georgia (02:20): It's like if you're on Ry, if you're on Instagram, wherever you get your patterns you probably have seen her patterns um, for socks. Her first book is Charming Colour Work Socks, and this one is Joyful Colour Work Socks. And they are just, delightful. Um, they have, some of them have animals. They're vegetables. I've just found a parrot. Um, there's a whole beautiful range. Um, and they're just, they're just gorgeous. Like really lovely.

Adam (02:46): Anyway, so I said, I said hello to I, we sent selfies, didn't we to?

Georgia (02:50): Yeah.

Adam (02:51): To say hello and Yeah, there was the, there was the opportunity to get a book signed by her for you shot. Oh. So.

Georgia (02:59): It's, so, there you go—

Adam (03:00): Georgia.

Georgia (03:00): Oh my goodness. I, you see something so often that you forget that it's there? I sent Adam a screenshot, of, my wallpaper because something a little top tip for you. If you are—

Adam (03:12): Wallpaper on your phone—

Georgia (03:12): Yes.

Adam (03:13): Not

Georgia (03:13): In your house. My phone wallpaper. I can't put wallpaper on my accommodation, Adam. I'm not there in life yet. Um, so my phone wallpaper sometimes if I'm knitting something and I need to look at a little colour chart, and have reference to it, but I don't wanna keep opening my phone. I actually put it as my wallpaper as I'm knitting so I can just tap the screen and see it rather than having to open it up. Um, but I did that when I was knitting the lovely chicken socks, like in November, and then I just forgot to not turn it off, even though I've been not knitting them for a long time. And, so I suddenly realised I knew were sending me a selfie with Charlotte, I thought. Wait, my phone wallpaper is her chicken chart. Like, so—

Adam (03:58): She was, she was very amused by that.

Georgia (03:59): Okay, cool. I'm, I'm, I'm a big fan, so thank you so much.

Adam (04:03): That's all right.

Georgia (04:03): This, I didn't bring you a gift. Apologies.

Adam (04:07): There we go. Have I completely thrown you then for the—

Georgia (04:09): A little bit—

Adam (04:09): Beginning of this episode?

Georgia (04:10): Slightly. Just because I'm so excited by this book. There's um, there's so many patterns in it that I have been kind of going on ravelry and thinking, oh, I really like that. Yeah. Yeah. But I just often don't justify getting another thing. 'cause I'm like, well, I'm still not knitted those socks, but now I have them all. Um, so thank you so much.

Adam (04:28): You're very welcome. Now you have 25 new knitting patterns for fun and whimsical footwear.

Georgia (04:33): I, and fun, whimsical they are. So this is, I'm gonna have to take it off the table 'cause I will. Yeah—

Adam (04:38): No, it, I, it's really distracting for you. I'm—

Georgia (04:41): I'm like, I'm thinking about the yarns I wanna use, I'm thinking about the little kitty cats, like, oh my goodness. Okay.

Adam (04:48): I had a lot of fun trying to persuade, Charlotte to put something much more amusing in, as the inscription. And she went quite sensible in the end.

Georgia (05:00): I, and that's fair enough. That's fair enough.

Adam (05:02): I think that's fair enough. It's her book.

Georgia (05:03): Yeah. Well—

Adam (05:05): There we go. I've thrown you off your agenda on point 1—

Georgia (05:07): Well, one thing I did want to say and acknowledge, I think in the interest of transparency around craft, and we've had all these conversations about making mistakes and, learning and how we should be, have more self-belief. In the last couple of weeks, so I was really poorly for, we had to postpone recording and things. I had a just, I had a bad virus and I was in bed for like a week and longer.

Adam (05:32): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (05:33): So I've, I didn't leave the house for like 10 days 'cause I was so poorly. So if I'm coughing or a little pressuring, I'm not poorly anymore, but I've had a lot of residual. So if you're hearing that in my voice, that's why. But it also gave me, quite a bit of knitting time, which is nice. It also gave me some sock knitting time for some fun, fun things. And I have figured out that I've been doing, colour work wrong forever, or maybe not forever, but like, quite wrong. And that's why, why—

Adam (06:06): There is no wrong, I'm challenge you to tell me how your colour work is wrong.

Georgia (06:10): Nah, nah. I learnt to knit English style.

Adam (06:14): Yeah.

Georgia (06:15): So holding the yarn in the right hand and throwing it round. Um, and then when I had a hand surgery, I... I learnt to do Continental so I could use my other hand.

Adam (06:23): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (06:23): So I learnt to use, I learnt to do Continental so I could use my other hand. And then when it came to colour work, it was a natural fit for me to hold one in each hand. Yeah. Like one of the, each colour and alternate. None of my friends were really doing that.

Adam (06:38): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (06:38): Most people were either, holding, well, most people were doing the English style, where you pick up one yarn and you know, you follow it that way. So when I kind of figured out how to do colour work, I'd watch these videos and a lot of people would say, you really, really need to pay attention to, lifting up like, which one you, which yarn you lift up. Like either one has to go over the other and have you heard this before?

Adam (07:03): Yeah,

Georgia (07:03): Yeah, yeah. So this, you—

Adam (07:04): You'll get, I mean, you're getting into is yarn dominance what you're gonna talk about?

Georgia (07:07): Well, yes, but it was often not talked about as yarn dominance, but it was told you just kind of, people just say it, but then they don't say why. And so, if it was a video talking about colour work where it's all English style or all continental style, and I couldn't really find that much on combined of the two. Because the first colour work thing I did, which actually is a gift knit—

Adam (07:30): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (07:30): Was Intarsia. I am used to needing to twist the yarn—

Adam (07:35): Yep.

Georgia (07:35): To stop it from falling apart. And so I thought that the picking up one yarn instead of the other yarn was so that it would twist and not fall apart.

Adam (07:45): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (07:46): And so every single time I change a colour, I have twisted the yarn. It's been really tight then, so I just, my socks would not work. And I've had, I've got a graveyard of sock cuffs that I couldn't get over my heel. Then I would implement like the knitter size up, make sure your, your floats are really wide, so it doesn't really matter if effectively you are catching the yarn every few stitches. And when I'd asked friends about this, they would say, oh, I just, I just twist the yarn when they change colour. Twist is an abstract concept because I took that to me. No, it's got to be properly twisted. They just meant switch the yarns. And so, Adam, I've—

Adam (08:32): I, well, I stand by the way. You did It wasn't wrong. It doesn't like.

Georgia (08:38): It's not, it was the sense that it didn't, it didn't cre I've had, it is messy and puckered and like a lot of tension problems and I was always like, oh, maybe it'll block out.

Adam (08:51): I mean, it will block out, but 'cause the, you get the bumpiness regardless of how you do it.

Georgia (08:56): Mm.

Adam (08:56): Particularly, I mean, you basically always get that, but Yeah, there are different ways to do it. There are faster ways to do it than that.

Georgia (09:02): Yeah.

Adam (09:03): But it's not, but but you were twisting them even though you had one in each hand.

Georgia (09:08): Yeah. Because I thought, yeah.

Adam (09:10): Must take you forever.

Georgia (09:11): Yeah. I, that's why I would do the, I would do the thing where you like pull the yarn forward so it would catch it.

Adam (09:16): Okay.

Georgia (09:16): Which was useful. But then I always thought that even was a shortcut and because it would then... twisting the yarn actually would create more of a gap. So I thought that meant that I needed to twist more.

Adam (09:30): You're not, you're not wrong at all. But, but there, I mean, there's faster ways to do it, but I wouldn't say it's wrong. I think it's too much of a loaded word.

Georgia (09:37): Well, yeah. I'm sure everyone does it how they do it, but the fact that I was doing it that way, because I'd had various bits of half information that had led, led me to think, oh, this is how you're supposed to do it.

Adam (09:49): Mm.

Georgia (09:50): And I could have been doing it. So, my colour work now is like a dream. It's a dream.

Adam (09:55): Amazing.

Georgia (09:56): I think it, it, I love knitting socks this much, and it's, it's actually gonna be, I'm gonna love it even more. and I am Now, there are a lot of colour work things that I want to knit for people as gifts. This is why I was kind of thinking about it. And—

Adam (10:10): You should have a look at, Anna's video, Needle and Feather.

Georgia (10:13): Mm-hmm.

Adam (10:13): Is the account on Instagram. Um, Anna does beautiful colour work stuff, but she also holds one left and one right.

Georgia (10:22): Oh, okay.

Adam (10:22): I know I hold two yarns, one on my index and one on my third finger.

Georgia (10:26): Yeah.

Adam (10:26): When I knit English style. And then I know my third finger is always yarn dominant, but—

Georgia (10:30): Okay.

Adam (10:31): And there are some people that believe yarn dominance doesn't exist. So, you can then there are ways of knitting so that you don't really have yarn dominance. So—

Georgia (10:39): I think the point I'm kind of almost trying to make though, is that. I didn't know that it was anything to do with yarn dominance. I thought it was to do with my knitting not falling apart.

Adam (10:50): Oh, okay.

Georgia (10:50): And so that's why I say I was wrong.

Adam (10:52): Mm.

Georgia (10:53): Because then the yarn, yarn dominance, like I knew, I know that's a concept and a thing, but I was trying to implement the yarn, dominance, dominance thing was completely undoing it by twisting the yarn every few stitches. So, so it was actually, I went to a, a stone knit video, just a short little short reel. And my brain was so frazzled, I got Dima to look at it, and I was like, can you just tell me if she's doing something weird? Is she catching some yarn in some way or somewhere? And he said, no, no, no. She's just, she's doing what you're doing, but she's not having to twist the on. And yeah.

Adam (11:25): You also, well, I posted something recently about, not catching floats every so often. There were people that came out the woodwork to me and designers. Very, very prolific designers who will say that, yeah, they don't catch even at 10 stitches.

Georgia (11:41): Mm-hmm.

Adam (11:41): They won't catch a float—

Georgia (11:42): I suppose if you've got enough confidence with your tension—

Adam (11:47): Yeah.

Georgia (11:47): Because I know you are really big on like, you feel able to vary your tension. And I kind of, in a way, despite what I'm saying, feel similarly, I've always been very good at keeping stitches loose, but just kind of been undone by the twisted yarn. But I do think that this has given me a new lease of life in terms of thinking about all of those colour work projects that I wanted to make for people that I now. Maybe have more of a fighting chance of actually getting to make them, because, it's not gonna take me as long.

Adam (12:17): Well, talking of knitting for other people. Would you like me to tell you a very funny story from Zurich?

Georgia (12:24): Yes, please. I would love this very much.

Adam (12:27): It is, it is a wonderful story. So I was told this by a teacher, and he used to run a class, which he doesn't, he wasn't running in Zurich, but he used to—

Georgia (12:37): Was like knitting teacher or a school teacher?

Adam (12:39): A knitting teacher.

Georgia (12:40): Okay.

Adam (12:41): And he used to run a class, and he gave him permission to tell the story. This amazing, where he would teach women about knitting for men. And the class was specifically like, I'm going to help you find. Jumpers for your, I guess it's probably not exclusively for women, but the point was because women, men don't understand women's bodies in the way that because they—

Georgia (13:10): Yeah.

Adam (13:10): And women don't naturally under, so it was like, let's, let's go through and UNP unpack this. So he had this class series that he did about choosing jumpers for the man in your life. So that was a, husband, son, father—

Georgia (13:24): Mm-hmm.

Adam (13:26): Et cetera. And the way he ran this class was they had to do a little bit of homework. They'd, bring in, pictures and so on. And also, he'd, he'd get people to think through certain aspects of them, so obviously colours that they liked the shape of the man. So, and to try and understand when, whether they had broad shoulders or whether they were broad chested, whether they had big tummies or whatever, whatever that.

Georgia (13:49): Mm-hmm.

Adam (13:50): But just to try and be able to, unpick.... w... help sort of get into the design process, because his hypothesis was also, once you understand some of these qualities, then actually you get into a very narrow range of filters on ravelry in terms of what, what you should be looking at.

Georgia (14:14): Mm.

Adam (14:14): Because certain body shapes mean raglan construction is completely out the window.

Georgia (14:19): Yeah.

Adam (14:19): Or circular yolks are completely out the window.

Georgia (14:21): I see that.

Adam (14:22): And so it helps collapse down an awful lot. Then you get into situational, where does the man wear the jumper? All the rest of it. Now it's a really interesting class and he, it always terribly popular. He went round the class and was asking people the specifics on it. He's always surprised about how little women tend to know about their husbands when you get into husbands or, yeah. The men in terms of what's their, what is their favourite colour, what is their favourite garment that they wear?

Georgia (14:54): Mm-hmm.

Adam (14:54): And so on. Anyway, started to get into this discussion and, asked, asked this woman about the person that she wanted to knit for, and she was describing her boyfriend, and, described this, quite attractive man. Um, and talked about that he had this, blue and white stripe jumper was what he wore a lot.

Georgia (15:16): Yeah.

Adam (15:16): And, talked about his broad shoulders that he was, relatively tall guy and so on. Continued around the room and, and then it got to, got to a lady on the other side of the room and she started describing the man that she, that she wanted to knit for her boyfriend and—

Georgia (15:36): Oh.

Adam (15:39): She started describing, attractive, tall man, well built and so on. Uh, and also that he had this particular blue and white jumper that he really liked wearing.

Georgia (15:53): Oh my goodness.

Adam (15:54): And then it got to what, this, this sounds, this sounds quite familiar. And the two women compared a photo of their boyfriend and it was the same guy.

Georgia (16:07): Oh my gosh.

Adam (16:09): The instructor at that point was just, he was, he was completely lost and also just having internal hysteria. So, so he left the room 'cause he didn't know what to do and he just stood outside.

Georgia (16:30): That's

Adam (16:30): Like two poor women.

Georgia (16:32): That's like sweater curse exponential.

Adam (16:35): I like, it's just—

Georgia (16:36): Oh my goodness.

Adam (16:38): Can you imagine? Can you imagine? And that's the way you discover. Anyway, it turned out they both lived, I guess within tens of kilometres of each other, but in two different cities, they both come from two different cities and knew the man in two different cities and he'd just been on, they'd both met him through the same dating app.

Georgia (16:57): What a tw*t. He's got a type clearly. Knitters. He wants his knitwear.

Adam (17:03): Exactly. Well, I wonder if they both told him like, I'm going to this class on how to knit you a jumper. And he sent them the same—

Georgia (17:09): Oh my goodness.

Adam (17:10): Get me something like this. I dunno. It's—

Georgia (17:13): My composition teacher and my mum ended up on the same Buddhist retreat once and they didn't know, they knew each other periphery from a distance. I think my mum had been at a concert and seen him. Like my mum said, "oh yeah, I'm going on this retreat this weekend". And he'd said, "oh, I'm going on this retreat this weekend". I didn't think about it. 'cause we were in very different places. And then I got this selfie of the two of them. And apparently they were having so much fun, like giggling and laughing. They really got on with each other that, the monks split them up during the quiet gardening time.

Adam (17:43): I love that.

Georgia (17:43): Yeah. So—

Adam (17:44): That's how you know you're having fun.

Georgia (17:45): Yeah, exactly. Um, but hmm. That's not, that's not great. That's, but wow.,

Adam (17:53): I mean, as an outsider it makes it an incredibly good story to tell.

Georgia (17:58): Yes.

Adam (17:58): But yeah. I do feel for them.

Georgia (18:00): Yeah. You kind of hear these, you hear these conventions and these stories about, people calling a florist and ordering flowers for their, their wife and their girlfriend and their mistress or whoever. And then the florist having to sort of send out these several flowers on Valentine's Day. And, wow. That's a shocker.

Adam (18:20): There you go. Uh, do you want another story?

Georgia (18:23): Well,

Adam (18:24): Well, or did you wanna say anything on this podcast? No.

Georgia (18:27): Well, right, so, that was a class for knitting for your, your partners.

Adam (18:31): Yeah.

Georgia (18:32): And I do wanna get to the boyfriend curse, the sweater curse thing later. Um, but first of all, I think I would like to kind of cover some bases about where we stand on gift knitting, what our experiences of gift knitting have been. I think that's maybe a good, good foundation.

Adam (18:48): I mean, my experiences of gift knitting, I mean, I guess my grandmother knit me a jumper when I was young, but that's, oh, and a friend knitted me a tea cosy when I was at university, maybe? Maybe it was when I moved out of university. Um, but I think that's the only knits I've been gifted historically. Those are, those are the ones that, spring to mind. And I, and I suppose I don't, I didn't appreciate the value of those things.

Georgia (19:17): Mm-hmm.

Adam (19:17): I wouldn't have said that I was knit worthy. At the time because I think—

Georgia (19:20): Knit worthy...

Adam (19:21): Because there's a, there is an enormous investment in those things which you don't understand as a non knitter.

Georgia (19:27): Mm-hmm.

Adam (19:27): Or unless you are like the partner of a knitter, in which case you see how much time goes into something.

Georgia (19:32): Mm-hmm.

Adam (19:32): I think very few people understand what a labour it is.

Georgia (19:37): Mm-hmm.

Adam (19:37): And that's why I'm extremely cautious about knitting for other people.

Georgia (19:41): Mm-hmm.

Adam (19:42): And I, for the most part, I won't do it because there aren't, there aren't people that appreciate that enough.

Georgia (19:50): Mm-hmm.

Adam (19:50): And that understand what a, what a big undertaking it is.

Georgia (19:55): I think I have a certain amount of that in my sort of immediate circles, but I think also. My family is sort of craft orientated. Um, anyway, diff in different ways, so not necessarily knitting or textile crafts. And my dad has made me some really beautiful things. He made us a, an a sort of a replica, a realistic model of our house. So our first house that we are living in now. I can't put it online because it is my home and would tell everyone where I lived, but it is, it's like the front facade of our house. Um, he made it for us in this frame and it's gorgeous and it must have taken him like a crazy amount of time. But I think he's always been that way inclined with making things for me. And, so I think if I were to knit for my family, they would kind of get it.

Adam (20:50): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (20:51): And they would understand the work that had gone into it.

Georgia (20:54): But then whether or not I, the big thing I worry about sometimes is the washing. And when you, if you, if you give something to someone who's not necessarily on board with, with delicate washing knits, that is an important con consideration.

Adam (21:10): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (21:10): You know, actually are, am I gonna knit something for someone? And, are they gonna hand wash it? Are they gonna take care of it? Is it gonna be in a heap on the floor? Is it gonna get moth eaten? You know, those kind of questions.

Adam (21:20): Yeah.

Georgia (21:20): So that's maybe a consideration. But I, there are some people though that I know where I'm just like... no, you're not... you're not knit worthy.

Adam (21:28): Absolutely. And I think also it's not just that they have to, that they're gonna treat that object, it's also that they're gonna wear it enough and you think that they, that it would be like a meaningful thing for them. But one of the early things that I, my mum's gonna hate that I'm talking about this, and I'm sorry mum that you're listening if you are, but, one of the, one of the first things that I knitted for someone else was my mum said to me, at the end, like towards the end of November. So her, her birthday's in early January, very early January. She hates that it's then, because everyone's always worn out by Christmas and New Year.

Georgia (22:02): Yeah. Hard time.

Adam (22:04): And so she said, she said to me, Adam, do you know what? If you knitted me a jumper for Christmas. That could be my joint Christmas and birthday present.

Georgia (22:13): Wow. Usually January, Christmas, winter babies don't like those kind of joint situations, so that's quite a no, but—

Adam (22:20): Quite

Georgia (22:20): A testament.

Adam (22:20): It's a, it's a, it's a big concession on her part.

Georgia (22:23): Mm.

Adam (22:23): To roll two presents into one. Um, obviously the, that's an indication as well from, from a non knitter, giving you that at the end of November as a, well—

Georgia (22:35): Ah,

Adam (22:35): Knit, knit me a jumper in four weeks, is a, is not a trivial thing. Um, but I, I went ahead and I ploughed ahead and I made this, I made her a, a brio jumper, which I absolutely loved doing, but I was an early knitter. It was like, that was my first venture into brioche that I wanted to do that.

Georgia (22:57): Oh.

Adam (22:58): I made it custom to size her. So I went round, I looked at, we talked about her favourite jumpers, and I made it to the size of. Her favourite jumper, so that it was—

Georgia (23:07): Mm-hmm.

Adam (23:08): You know, working with the shape that worked for her. Um, but I made it the way I could get it that fast. It was brioche, but it was, it was in a relatively chunky yarn and it's too warm for her. So basically, I don't think it gets worn very much as a result because it's kind of a useless object.

Georgia (23:27): Mm-hmm.

Adam (23:28): It's a beautiful thing, and it's got these beautiful cables that run all the way over it. Yeah. But it's kind of useless because she's never in a cult enough place to wear it.

Georgia (23:37): Mm-hmm. Whereas when you made the jumper for your brother, you did the mohair um, oh, what's the, leper, no.,

Adam (23:46): Lopi

Georgia (23:47): Lopi, you did the sort of the Lopi Mohair combination and made it to the thinner so that you, do you think that was...

Adam (23:53): That was, that was my maturity—

Georgia (23:55): Yeah.

Adam (23:55): As a knitter that I understood. Much more about the questions you have to ask. And that's, that's the thing I didn't understand with my mum at the time.

Georgia (24:03): Mm.

Adam (24:03): Was that I'd, I'd understood, I understood some of the things that she liked, and that's really important. Like, show me a jumper that fits you, show me a jumper that you like to wear.

Georgia (24:12): Mm-hmm.

Adam (24:13): And I think that's a really important part of interrogating that.

Georgia (24:15): Mm-hmm.

Adam (24:16): What I didn't understand was material choices at that point.

Georgia (24:18): Mm-hmm.

Adam (24:19): And I'd made it with the wrong material.

Georgia (24:21): I think that's one of the parts of knitting for other people that almost not puts me off because I, when we think about like love languages, I never really thought of myself as being a gift giving love language person.

Adam (24:32): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (24:33): But then one of our friends from Rogue Young Club, I kind of gave her a, like a, a care package hamper once, and she said to me, your love language really is gift giving, isn't it? And I hadn't ever thought about it, but then it suddenly, everything fell into place and I went, oh yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you would probably think that I am like an avid gift knitter and in a sense I am, but I also have a ADHD so I never finished them. And I think it's that element of is this for, well, is this a surprise? Is it not a surprise, but also wanting to make sure that I had them have the material understanding that this is really what this person wants and it's the really the right thing. 'cause I think that, the gift love language thing for me is very much a question of intention. And so when I want to get something for someone, I'm looking at it going, I think about all the little details. And then if I'm knitting something for someone like my stepdad has, asked for, he not in a demanding way and I love him to bits, so he's totally allowed to ask this. He has expressed a desire, interest in having some kind of, as he would describe a fair isle vest. And, we know, without getting into that kind of worms, he basically wants a kind of a colour, colour work vest.

Adam (25:53): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (25:53): A kind of, Gordy retro style like, and I'd love to knit him one. Um, I have just kind of not had the dedicated time and I've also thought I need to measure him for it. I need to think of patterns. I've got like a folder of different possible vest options, different patterns, ideas. But I haven't had the time to really make sure, there's a time and intention that goes into it, and I almost don't wanna make that mistake of knitting something that will then not be worn because I really wanna make sure it's right. So I think that definitely holds me back from knitting more things for people than I do.

Adam (26:28): I totally agree. Like, and I mean, I go through a process when I do knit for someone, which is a very rare event, I would go through the process of trying to understand from them what they want out of a, a, a, a gift knit. And, my, again, it's a relatively famous jumper that I've knitted from my friend Tom... that, that—

Georgia (26:51): It's gorgeous—

Adam (26:52): That he was hurt, physically hurt. He had a really serious physical injury. And I was, I had been thinking about, well, I should knit something for Tom at some point. But that was a, that was a, that crystallised it for me.

Georgia (27:06): Mm-hmm.

Adam (27:06): It gave me a moment to like, well, I'm gonna do something nice for him at this point. Um, but yeah, I went through with him the shaping and what he wanted out of a jumper in terms of fit, because that was the most important thing. I knew that if I made something totally garish, he would wear it and love it, because I've, I've known him for 30 years or whatever, so like that was, I knew him well enough that colours wasn't a question. But when I've knitted for other people, I do talk about colours and I do ask about that.

Georgia (27:36): Yeah.

Adam (27:36): Because all of those things are really important. And if you put, like in a jumper, you're talking 60, you might put a hundred hours work into it. I'm not, I'm not putting a hundred hours into something unless I know. What they want outta it.

Georgia (27:49): Mm-hmm.

Adam (27:50): So, yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm all about the consultation.

Adam (27:54): Also, there's a, there's within economic microeconomic theory, in terms of the value, the emotional value of gifts.

Georgia (28:04): Mm-hmm.

Adam (28:04): There is a higher value in knowing that you are getting a gift. And that, and because if you think about the surprise and the joy that you get when you get a gift is more, if you don't know you're gonna receive it.

Georgia (28:19): Mm-hmm.

Adam (28:20): So I know that book I just gave you, for example, there is more joy in that than if I had told you two days ago, by the way, I'm bringing you back something special.

Georgia (28:30): That's true.

Adam (28:30): So you got more enjoyment in the moment. However, you get more enjoyment in total from anticipating something and knowing that there's something good coming because it gi it gives you little bits of joy over time.

Georgia (28:45): Mm-hmm.

Adam (28:45): The moment of then receiving it isn't as big.

Georgia (28:48): Mm-hmm.

Adam (28:48): But you have, and that's been shown in studies that you get more enjoyment out.

Georgia (28:56): Mm.

Adam (28:56): If you know about something in advance.

Georgia (28:58): I really like that. That's, that's very helpful to me.

Adam (29:01): And so, from my point of view, when I'm knitting for someone that's also like a, just internal justification that, well, I'm gonna, I'm, I'm giving someone more pleasure by, by telling them about this over time.

Georgia (29:11): Mm-hmm.

Adam (29:11): The difficulty is obviously that I have, I have promised gifts for people, which I haven't made.

Georgia (29:16): So that's definitely a problem for me.

Adam (29:19): And I'm, I'm, I'm wracked with guilt now.

Georgia (29:21): Yeah. When I saw my stepdad the other week and he, said, I was talking about, I was talking about the colour work thing and he was talking about the, his, his sort of dream sweater vest. I was saying, "oh, I'll do it at some point". And I think on some level he felt like I was kind of putting him off gently and going, oh, she's never gonna knit this me. But I genuinely, I really want to do it. But I'm not going to say, let's do measurements. Let's look at patterns. I'm not going to do that. Oh, excuse me. I'm not gonna do that until. I have the bandwidth and I've cleared the decks. I've got like three jumpers that all need sleeves.,

Adam (30:02): They could be vests.

Georgia (30:03): Some of them it's not, the yolk is not, it's not vest vest vibes. But I'm determined that before the middle of the year, I'm gonna clear the decks on all of these other past projects. 'cause as much as people say, "oh, be a monogamous knitter, like you can have one project at a time", " Or, or things like about over consumption. Like, "oh, you just make sure that you always buy yarn with a project in mind". I absolutely do.

Adam (30:27): Oh, this will make a lovely hat. I'll take it home.

Georgia (30:29): I'm like, oh yeah. All the yarn I have, it was a hundred percent match to a pattern that I a hundred percent thought that'll take no time at all. I'll cast that on, not a problem.

Adam (30:38): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (30:38): And then that's become such a distant past thing that now it's a bit dear disconnected. Um, alas...

Adam (30:45): So this went, this did the rounds on Reddit a couple of weeks ago.

Georgia (30:48): Oh, is this the one that you mentioned last week?

Adam (30:50): Mm

Georgia (30:51): Mm mm Okay.

Adam (30:54): Adam and Georgia go. Mm. A lady in the US I think it was consulted her sister-in-law. I think that's the relationship... i'd like to knit for you, what would you like me to knit? And did the consultation and they talked through colours, but then the knitter ignored the colour choices and knitted something in quite a relatively, I think, bland, beige-y kind of colour, grey kind of colour. It was a—

Georgia (31:20): You've got yourself to blame in this situation.

Adam (31:23): Well, the recipient didn't like it because it wasn't, it wasn't a colour that she would ever wear.

Georgia (31:27): Mm-hmm.

Adam (31:28): They're at a barbecue a little while later, a few months down the road, and the knitter spots the recipient wearing a green version of the jumper and said, oh, that's just like the one that I knitted for you.

Georgia (31:39): Have you learned to knit?

Adam (31:41): And the recipient says, oh yes, I took the one that you'd knitted for me.

Georgia (31:45): Mm-hmm.

Adam (31:46): And I dyed it green.

Georgia (31:47): Mm-hmm.

Adam (31:48): And at which point there was a, cease to function argument, everyone blows up and gets very upset about it.

Georgia (31:56): Mm-hmm.

Adam (31:57): And you know, the knitter says, well, that was, that was special malibrigo that I'd been saving. But obviously the recipient didn't like the colour and wanted to use it. And so dyed it green and any way you look at that. There is, there is love and care wanting to, wanting to do something, but thinking about, and it, but it just not working.

Georgia (32:19): Mm-hmm.

Adam (32:19): The knitter was creating something that they loved out of the material that they had chosen because they loved it.

Georgia (32:24): Mm-hmm.

Adam (32:25): But hadn't listened and adhered to the requirements of the giftee. The giftee wasn't ever gonna wear it.

Georgia (32:33): Mm-hmm.

Adam (32:34): So I th... you know, you could say they absolutely did the right thing by dying it into a colour that they were gonna wear.

Georgia (32:40): I can completely see where people are coming at it from different angles. I don't necessarily agree with all the angles. I used to be like very into minimalism. There's a big thing in sort of a topic that comes up very frequently for, in the minimalist community, is around gifts and people giving you things that you don't want or things that you will declutter and about the guilt of being gifted something especially when you've told someone. Oh, no, I tried to get things intentionally like the whisk, the forever whisk. Um, I would, that was very much, I was in that phase at that time and I really didn't want the to be given this whisk. I think what I feel, I've never really articulated it in quite so abruptly, but I think once you gift something to someone and you've given it to them, that is their property.

Adam (33:26): It is.

Georgia (33:26): And it's their thing to decide what to do with it. You know, you can do your best as the gift giver to, communicate its value, communicate its worth to make sure you get the right thing for someone. Especially if you've not actually listened to what the person wants and you give a gift. I just—

Adam (33:45): The thing is I can see you, I can see you getting round, like I totally agree with you. You give a gift. It has been given. You give, you, give something freely.

Georgia (33:52): Yeah.

Adam (33:53): That's, that is, that is how you give things.

Georgia (33:55): I just think this is...

Adam (33:56): However, like that's the horrible thing about that situation is that there is, like, at every point there's a way to undo it and go back and to make it better. But on the other hand—

Georgia (34:06): I mean, I haven't read the full story, but from the information you've given me. I don't think the sister-in-law who's received the jumper is at fault. It was given to her, it belonged to her, and she didn't just give it away. She found an intentional way of, okay, how can I wear this jumper that my sister-in-law has knitted for me, and it's beautiful and I really want to wear it, but I need to be honest with myself. I'm not gonna wear this if it's this colour. It, washes me out. It's not the right thing. I think that she's perfectly within her rights, and if anything, you could see it as a, a positive I that she's actually made, gone to the effort of dying it rather than throwing it away. I just—

Adam (34:43): I mean, hand knits, knits ended up in charity shops as well.

Georgia (34:46): Exactly.

Adam (34:46): And that, and that could have been where that ended up. And then the sister, sister-in-law would never have known about that either.

Georgia (34:51): Yeah.

Adam (34:52): Possibly. You know, I'd never see you wear it. Oh, that's because I gave it away 14 years ago.

Georgia (34:56): Yeah.

Adam (34:57): It's one of those situations where there just isn't a, there isn't a great outcome to that. No. But if you think about where the opportunities were to make that better, it was in communication upfront or clearer communication that worked better.

Georgia (35:11): Absolutely.

Adam (35:12): But I mean I think that's where, socks have a special place in gifting because they are fairly universally used or, that there is, there's, there's a high likelihood of use I like as like as gift objects to knit. I always think, oh, for Christmas, what I'll do is I'll knit people hot water bottle covers.

Georgia (35:32): Mm.

Adam (35:32): Because that's a, it's a relatively simple knit. It's relatively small to do, like depending on your, I mean if you knitted it in chunky, which is probably better for hot water bottles anyway.

Georgia (35:43): Mm-hmm.

Adam (35:43): You're talking about a few, like not more than 10 hours of work.

Georgia (35:47): Mm-hmm.

Adam (35:47): Probably you might even do it in five or six, whereas. You know, you're not committing to a hundred hours for a jumper, that's the other thing for me about doing it is that what, what things would I like, who would I really put a hundred hours of work into to gift them something.

Georgia (36:05): Mm-hmm.

Adam (36:06): And particularly where that time for me, my knitting time is so precious. Yes, there is so little of it. Why, how and why am I giving that to someone? And that has to be a really intentional thing for me.

Georgia (36:17): I don't want to be offensive here, but that you could knit someone a water bottle cover and almost because like a water bottle cover doesn't have those... I mean, generally speaking doesn't have those kind of sentimental, meaningful attachment kind of thing. And people generally will have a hot water bottle cover that already goes in the hot water bottle and they won't really think about it. I mean, for some people a hot water metal might actually be a really important thing. Like when I've got my period really bad, like hot water bottle is important. Um, so that's a consideration. But I just, there's a part of me that's like, yes, you only be doing something for 10 hours, but 10 hours is still a lot of time.

Adam (36:52): Oh, it absolutely is.

Georgia (36:52): Just to make something just like tick a box where I just... if I ever find myself kind of going through the motions around Christmas or birthdays or anything, and I'm going through the motions of buying stuff for people just to kind of tick it off the list, that's usually when I go, I'm gonna get them something non-physical, like a, an experience or a, a voucher or just some, or like, cinema tickets.

Adam (37:16): But that's also where the value of the, of the, of the gift is wildly different. Like if you are buying someone a couple of cinema tickets, 25 quid or whatever.

Georgia (37:25): Yeah.

Adam (37:25): That's. That's one thing, but what can you knit if you are, if you are assuming that you are work at minimum wage, you are talking about maybe two hours of knitting.

Georgia (37:37): Yeah.

Adam (37:38): And three pounds on the yarn.

Georgia (37:39): Exactly.

Adam (37:40): Materials for that. What are you gonna knit with that? It's, it's challenging.

Georgia (37:43): Exactly.

Adam (37:44): And what, what you get into naturally is thinking more about, well, I'm gonna knit on a hat or whatever.

Georgia (37:48): Mm-hmm.

Adam (37:48): And instantly that's, it's 10 hours of work, which is hundreds of pounds of your time plus the material cost.

Georgia (37:55): Exactly.

Adam (37:56): And I don't like, there are naturally people who you, who, when you're thinking about, oh, I should get them a gift. Oh, I could knit them something.

Georgia (38:02): Mm-hmm.

Adam (38:02): Or they say, oh, you could knit me something. I'm like, well, I wouldn't be considering a 200 or a 500 or a thousand pound gift for you.

Georgia (38:10): Well, it's like when you say that knitting is. Your knitting time is precious as well. That's another big consideration for me. I've had people in my life who have been like, oh, it would be, it would be really nice if you knitted something for me, and, oh, why I still haven't had anything from you. And, often when people are saying this to me, they don't realise that my own jumper that I've been trying to finish for a year is still on the needles. You know, the fact that I finished this scarf and like have a new nice thing for myself was so lovely, because as much as I'm around craft every day and I think about knitting every day, and I read about knitting every day and then not actually knitting at something for maybe like two weeks, which is just crazy.

Adam (38:49): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (38:50): And from an external perspective. They might not think it as being selfish as such, but, it, then I think the response when people are like, oh, why haven't you knitted for me when I have to say like, but I've barely knitted for myself. I think my instinct is that sounds a bit selfish for me to be like, well. Yeah, I still haven't finished my own thing. Sorry. But it's like being in a plane, like you put your own mask on first and then other people's.

Adam (39:17): I love that. Knit your own mask first before—

Georgia (39:20): Yeah. Knit your own mask first—

Adam (39:21): Before helping those around you.

Georgia (39:23): Yeah.

Adam (39:23): Yeah. I agree. I mean, I will say I think we're probably both being quite, we're probably in a similar position in terms of who we knit for. Basically, not many people, or not many people successfully get gifts from us that are knitted. I think the counter to that is there are some pro prolific gift knitters who do amazing, who are brilliant at just churning out—

Georgia (39:46): Mm-hmm.

Adam (39:46): Sock after sock or hat after hat, or, or matching jumpers for grandchildren. Like, I've, I've seen people do that and I think I wish I could be that person.

Georgia (39:57): Yeah.

Adam (39:57): I wish I could create matching sets of jumpers for children and stuff like that.

Georgia (40:02): I'm that person in my ambition and in my mind, like I'm, that is a hundred percent, genuinely uh, that is my aspiration. I want to knit for people all the time, 'cause I don't want lots of things for myself, so the idea of knitting intentionally for other people, I'd love to do that. The reality is, and I think this is maybe where we get more choosy and picky about things, is the time to do that. And this is, I never wanna be one of these people who's like, oh, well if only I had the time, I, if only I had as much time as you to spend three hours picking a font, 'cause people say that to me and it's really hurtful. So I don't wanna say that. Um, but I think people ultimately, they probably are much better at knitting consistently and knitting for longer periods of time every day. And I see that when, when I was sick last week and I actually got enough time to sit down and I made good progress on my jumper.

Adam (40:51): I know I—

Georgia (40:51): I'm weaving an ends now.

Adam (40:52): I had a, when I had a holiday over Christmas and I wasn't, I, you wouldn't have seen it 'cause I pre uploaded all my content to Instagram and so on. But where I actually then had time to knit the amount I knitted was just crazy to me.

Georgia (41:04): Yeah.

Adam (41:04): That I could, I could actually move through stuff.

Georgia (41:07): Like there's moments when, when that happens, where I go. So this is how people knit for other people.

Adam (41:12): Yeah, exactly. What they, what they do is they have some hours to actually be able to dedicate to it properly.

Georgia (41:17): I saw a friend recently who, she lives in Estonia. Um, she's a very lovely artie crafty friend. Uh, she's an architect and she expressed interest in really wanting a kind of a Sophie scarf shawl thing. And because I know her from, like, I know her arty vibes, I know her crafty vibes, she was one of these people that understood what she was asking, and she was saying like, I'll pay for it. Like I, and obviously I'm not, she's a really good friend. I'm not going... but she was trying to communicate to me that she understood what she was asking, but that she'd really like one and she actually suggested a swap, a trade. She's been doing lots of ceramics and she said, honestly, I've got so many from going to these classes, these evening classes, so if you want anything, you can commission it. You can tell me what you want. And I said, well actually I don't have a small little bud vase. I love flowers. Um, but I don't have one for like the little offcuts, the things that break off. I try to make a little smaller bouquet and then I'm always struggling for something. And she said, oh my gosh, I've got so many bud vases. A hundred percent. And we're gonna do like a, once I actually knit this scarf for her, we are gonna do like a little trade...

Adam (42:23): Well, that's beautiful—

Georgia (42:24): Of things.

Adam (42:24): That's lovely.

Georgia (42:24): Yeah.

Adam (42:25): But I, but also like a Sophie scarf is a, because that's like, that's ones skein of DK weight or something, isn't it?

Georgia (42:31): Yeah.

Adam (42:31): So that's, that's probably, I don't know, I'm gonna, I'm bound to screw this up, but I would guess that's then about four or five hours of knitting.

Georgia (42:39): Yeah, that's something like that i's, it's been while since I've knitted one, but—

Adam (42:41): That's. I mean, there's still a really significant amount that you're investing in terms of the knit.

Georgia (42:47): Mm-hmm.

Adam (42:47): But it's not, it's not, it's not jumper level. It's—

Georgia (42:50): Easy enough.

Adam (42:50): I will say the other thing that affects whether I knit for someone is the repeat or the repeatability of knitting for someone is very heavily dependent of whether someone presents themselves wearing my knitting.

Georgia (43:04): I see. Yeah. I get that.

Adam (43:05): My friend, my friend Tom, ever since I knitted him that jumper, every time I see him is wearing that jumper Aw. And wraps me in a big hug where his big fairy jumper. So he proves himself as knit worthy.

Georgia (43:17): Mm-hmm.

Adam (43:17): I'm not about to knit him another one, but if I ever considered knitting for him again. Like, he immediately jumps up my priority list of all the people I want to knit for. Um, and my mum's another one obviously just, I mean, partly 'cause she's my mum but also like, she also always wears the hats that I've made her.

Georgia (43:33): Mm-hmm.

Adam (43:34): And so that sort of gets her extra brownie points.

Georgia (43:38): Thinking of like, people I've knitted for. I'm trying to rack my brains of like, my experiences of actually gift knitting. There was one, I think I've mentioned it before, on various episodes of the podcast, I knitted and jump over my niece, but then this was the intarsia project. It's on my Instagram. Because it was my first time doing colourwork work and it was intarsia. You might think how, how the hell did you do that? But, I. I was reading in like a knitting magazine and it was ranked as like, "improving your skills", like in the, their difficulty rating. And I thought, well, I want to improve my skills. And so, made it, and it worked and it was fine and I learned a lot. Um, but the back of it, once we've woven in all the ends and everything, and the texture of the yarn I was using, it was, I don't wanna say it was rough, but it was just, I think I used like a Sirdar uh, it was called like the child play one, which is supposed to be like a bit bit rough and ready, so like kids can play in it and be active, but it's not super warm, so it's like a summer weight kind of thing. And actually for my niece, it became, the first time I made it, the head hole was too small, so it got sent back to me and I was doing some like mad steeking to like figure out how to get the hole bigger. Um, and that wasn't great. Then I looked on ravelry, turned out everyone else who'd knitted the pattern had also had to change the head hole because none of them. Yeah. But in the end, this jumper went back and forth to Hungary three times. And, she'd obviously it was still fitting 'cause I, but only just, and it was not comfortable for her. And she basically cried and, it had on and off taken me like, I mean, eight, nine months, to fi figure this out. I just said to Dima, like, 'cause I don't speak Hungarian. And I just said, Deems can you ask, ask her if she would like to wear it and she's not gonna hurt my feelings. If she doesn't want to wear it, then we can keep it and that's okay. And if she'd like me to knit her something else I can. And she just. She's very much been raised to like, share her feelings, which is lovely. And she said, yes, I don't want to wear it. Thank you. And—

Adam (45:44): That's the one of a child is so much more likely to be honest about that than an adult.

Georgia (45:47): Yeah. Well that was my fear was if I leave it with my sister-in-law and things that they're not gonna wanna hurt my feelings in giving it back to me. And I love the jumper so much. It's really fun. And, maybe I'll, I'm on the one hand I'm like a minimalist, on the other hand, I'm like, I will have a child one day that will wear this jumper. Um, so—

Adam (46:07): I'll have a child in order that someone will wear this jumper.

Georgia (46:09): Exactly.

Georgia (46:10): But the other kind of semi, it's a bit dark, but um, I dunno if you remember this. I had a, a particularly rough kind of period of time where I had family relatives, friends who were all very ill and um, had had like recent diagnoses of terminal conditions and, had that instinct like you described earlier, of like, someone's uh, having a really rough time or is in poor health and you want to knit for them. And so I inadvertently ended up knitting for two people who were both terminally ill. And because it was kind of like we didn't know how or when they were gonna still be here, it created this really intense like, pressure of like I need to finish these socks before this person dies. And um, yeah, and I just, I was, my knitting time was 'cause you knit something for someone, you're thinking about that person and I realised I'd inadvertently just created a very depressing situation for myself.

Adam (47:09): Yeah.

Georgia (47:09): Because I was only knitting for these people who I really loved and weren't gonna have much more time.,

Adam (47:16): That's so challenging.

Georgia (47:17): Yeah. So, and then I messed up one of the colour work on one of them and had to frog it all. So one of those people never got their hat. Um, so yeah. Uh, sorry. So you can laugh. It's fine.

Adam (47:33): I don't, I don't, I dunno what to say to that.

Adam (47:36): Do you know what I have a more positive experience of, knitting for people with. Horrible conditions, which is, which also comes from Zurich this weekend, which is, there was a, a wonderful project, while I was there. Yes. Um, so the project is all about, creating this hug shawl. And this is basically the way that you contribute to these shawls. So these shawls are given to people who have a breast cancer diagnosis.

Georgia (48:05): Mm-hmm.

Adam (48:06): And the aim is to give them a hug and they, you don't knit the whole shawl though. You knit a triangle and all the triangles are sewn together. And then, so when you receive a shawl, it's something that's been created by 25 other people for you, or I mean, possibly more than that because you, someone else has seen it together. And I thought that was a, that was a really beautiful project. And so that was something that I was there with, Melanie Berg and in fact, sorry, just, we just cut there 'cause I've just grabbed the book off the shelf or Georgia's reached for it for me. But Melanie Berg made this book, Shawl Love, but Melanie was diagnosed with breast cancer, a few years back and created this shawl with that in mind. Um, and it's a really beautiful project and she's got the, if you are interested, then you can go to Melanie's website. And if you, if you search for Melanie Berg, you'll find her, you'll find the project. But it's a, it's a lovely thing and it's also a nice way to contribute where you don't have to knit the whole shawl It's a, it's a small triangle. And that was a lovely thing at the festival. Basically the eight kilos of yarn were given out.

Georgia (49:11): Mm.

Adam (49:11): To knit all these little triangles.

Georgia (49:13): Oh, that's so nice.

Adam (49:14): And yeah, people were just like, I knitted one and lots of people knitted them. It was also amazing. Just side note, it was amazing to see how wildly different gauge swatches were. Oh, not gauge swatches. You don't gauge swatch for this. So basically what they did, because they get enough triangles, they pair all the triangles up with basically the same size.

Georgia (49:35): Got you.

Adam (49:36): So you don't need to worry about hitting gauge. But everyone was knitting these on three or three and a quarter millimetre needles. And the biggest to the smallest. So in the 68, 69 or so that I saw that came back in that weekend. The biggest of the smallest was a factor of two.

Georgia (49:55): Mm.

Adam (49:56): I was just amazed that two people could knit on the same size needle to get that—

Georgia (50:00): Especially that small. That's crazy.

Adam (50:03): Yeah. So I mean there's, it's almost like Gauge swatching is real and you should do it.

Georgia (50:06): Well, gauge watching is important and then we can have a whole separate episode on this. But I will say, generally speaking, I've been quite fortunate with my tension gauge watching that I usually get it first time.

Adam (50:20): I mean, you and I are obviously both perfect Georgia—

Georgia (50:23): But in that sense, I wonder if when you hear... what I'm saying about this is if you are fortunate to just kind of like settle—

Adam (50:30): Yeah.

Georgia (50:31): That then you are more likely to be like, I don't swatch. Whereas if you're a person who has, swatching when I was an English style knitter... definitely more problems and when I had my hand injury, more problems there. So I did have to swatch more and had to change about things since I've figured out a consistent way of doing it continentally. I'm saying this more for like, if you are hearing this and you hear other people spr spouting the fake news—

Adam (50:54): They know that they're a loose knitter and therefore they may have to make an adapt adaption. Yeah. Or you know—

Georgia (50:59): Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Adam (51:00): Whatever.

Georgia (51:00): So I'm just trying to account for like the variation. Don't at yourself, is what I mean.

Adam (51:06): Fair enough.

Georgia (51:07): Um.

Adam (51:08): Where are we doing on time? We're outta time.

Georgia (51:10): I think we're gonna have to have a whole separate episode on the boyfriend sweater.

Adam (51:14): Oh my God. We haven't even talked about that.

Georgia (51:16): I know. See, that's the thing is I, we've got an episode's worth here, but I had, I had plans, I had—

Adam (51:24): Georgia—

Georgia (51:24): I had things.

Adam (51:25): Georgia has come with an agenda and I have talked over it and we haven't got anywhere as a result. 'Cause I have rambled roughshod over your agenda and I'm sorry for doing so.

Georgia (51:33): It's fine. I mean, usually it's, the other way around. So—

Adam (51:37): But we wanted to talk about the boyfriend sweater curse.

Georgia (51:38): Yeah. I feel like you can't really talk about gifting or just like gift crafting without uh, at least acknowledging this. I think if we don't acknowledge it, we'll have lots of comments going where the sweater curse—

Adam (51:48): So, I mean, but I think basically we've spent most of this episode saying, why would you ever knit a sweater for someone? 'cause it's too big a commitment. Like, it's such a huge commitment in time—

Georgia (51:56): Uhhuh.

Adam (51:57): And maybe that's why it becomes interesting. I mean—

Georgia (52:00): So for people, 'cause some people, they wouldn't necessarily have heard of this before or be familiar with it. Um, there is a Wikipedia page on this phenomenon of the sweater curse. But Adam, could you, could you explain to, our audience, just kinda give them a brief overview of, what actually is the sweater curse supposedly?

Adam (52:17): Broadly it is that you knit a sweater for your romantic partner, and shortly after the end of that process, you break up and the, it is, the process of breaking up is directly attributable to making a sweater.

Georgia (52:35): Mm-hmm.

Adam (52:35): That's, that's, that's the total of it.

Georgia (52:38): Is it that it's like directly attributed or that it is like the curse of it as in like, that you haven't, you haven't broken up over the sweater?

Adam (52:44): No, no, no. You don't break it. It's the curse of it.

Georgia (52:46): Yeah.

Adam (52:46): So it's the fact that you did it creates some sort of mythical curse—

Georgia (52:50): Mm-hmm.

Adam (52:50): And guarantees a breakup.

Georgia (52:51): And I've had so many different, like, breakdowns of like why this could be, and I think one of them is this idea that, well you put all this time and effort and energy and resource into making something and then it's not appreciated. And then that builds resentment and then causes tension. So there's like different ways of looking at it.

Adam (53:08): So that's one of the big hypotheses about why it exists.

Georgia (53:12): Mm-hmm.

Adam (53:12): Another main hypothesis is that the act of looking for like I am going to knit a sweater for you is in itself a sign that there is something wrong in the relationship because you want to create the connection that is missing in the relationship.

Georgia (53:30): Wow.

Adam (53:30): And therefore, in order, 'cause you are, you are searching for other acts of love, that's, you do that and therefore, once it's done, it then exposes that there's an issue in the relationship. People love talking about it and love the different theories around why it exists.

Georgia (53:46): Maybe people, maybe they just think you're too keen. Like if you just like knit something for someone, like it could seem quite domestic and quite like, settling down.

Adam (53:57): I mean, certainly if you like second date and you turn up with a oh, and I stayed. I think that's, I think that's probably—

Georgia (54:05): I mean, it's a good job. I wasn't a knitter when I met Dima. It's, that's all I can say.

Adam (54:08): It's a bit intense.

Georgia (54:09): There's some stats that from, it was a 2005 poll, so this is not peer reviewed, but it was from, from—

Adam (54:16): And it's one 20 years out of date.

Georgia (54:17): Yes, and it was from, the, from Knitters Review. So 2005 in their poll, 15% of knitters reported having experienced the sweater curse, and 41% considered that it should be taken seriously.

Adam (54:31): So I polled about it on Instagram. Okay. It was way higher when, when Interesting. I polled about it. Um, and I think it was, I think it was approaching 30% of people had direct experience of it.

Georgia (54:42): Mm-hmm.

Adam (54:44): Who, who had done it. But you have to also remember that was it 30%, 50% of marriages end in divorce. So in terms of, in terms of relationship longevity, like not all relationships last, and therefore if you knit a sweater for anyone, certainly like premarital sweater—

Georgia (55:03): Mm-hmm.

Adam (55:05): The likelihood is that you are going to break up anyway at some point.

Georgia (55:07): Yeah.

Adam (55:08): So you know, it statistically that becomes difficult to argue that the sweater is the—

Georgia (55:13): Well, that's the thing. I think it's an, it's almost fun to engage with the idea of it as some kind of like urban legend thing, and also as a barometer... someone I know had asked me last year and said, oh, I'm thinking of knitting a jumper for my boyfriend. And they hadn't been together that long. And I just had to kind of go, by the way, there's this sweater curse thing and told them about that. And I think, yeah, like you say, are you using it to plaster over things in a relationship And, maybe, even if the curse isn't real it's a fun or, it is a useful, framework to just even like reflect a bit and go, is this the right decision? Is this relationship right for me? Um, so to close out this episode—

Adam (56:00): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (56:00): Something I've, I've been wanting to bring, things from this book, Sharp Notions: Essays from the Stitching Life. I've been wanting to bring this book to the podcast, on so many occasions. You've probably seen it on the table if you've watched or seen the cover photos or whatever. And we've always like, run out of time. And the reason it's been so applicable to so many different things is because it's this gorgeous book with, essays covering all different elements of textile crafting and making, and the essays about people's personal experiences, personal lives. Sometimes really fun, sometimes really... you laugh, you'll cry the whole, the whole gamut. It's edited by Marita Daschel and Nancy Lee, but then there's a whole host of different, writers within it. And there is an essay about the sweater, the sweater curse. Let me find it. So it's, it's written by Justina Chong and. Yeah, she's talking about this boyfriend that she had and she was knitting for them. And there's a whole story that is woven through it. It also talks about knitting for other people and a lack of appreciation.

Adam (57:02): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (57:03): So, definitely worth a read. Um, but I wanted to read this little chapter, or this, this little section.,

Adam (57:12): Not a whole chapter.

Georgia (57:12): No, not a whole chapter. I just wanna read this, just to kind of, it will give some of the vibe. A ravelry search turns up the perfect grandpa sweater pattern. My Toronto public library branch has a copy of the pattern book. I get a library card for the occasion. My boyfriend comes with me to the yarn store and picks out some green cascaded yarns eco Wool. Then it's time to cast on. For weeks, I take my boyfriend's sweater project everywhere I go, knit, knit, knit, purl, purl, purl. Row upon row of stockinette stitch. At the park, on the porch, on the 501 Queen Street car, on the subway. But just as I'm binding off, my boyfriend breaks up with me. He thinks we don't really understand each other like something is missing. He might be right. His emotions are hard to read, blank even. Like he would prefer to be alone inside his head. He's four years older and does things that real adults do, like smoking, drinking black coffee, using an electric toothbrush, reading Thomas Pinchen, and watching arty movies that don't make sense. Sometimes his cynicism frightens me. No doubt my optimism disgusts him. Our arguments though, rare, usually conclude with him declaring when you're in your late twenties, you'll be jaded too. I (laughter ) I don't want him to be right. it, this essay's so great because it's written like from being in it and it's all these like indie f%$ boy, things that I have unfortunately had far too much experience of as a contemporary composer, lady, woman. And, there's just so much in this where you are, you see that the contrast of really being in love with someone, and yet they're showing you who they are. They're showing you that they do not deserve you to knit them a jumper, and yet you do it because you are in love with them because you happen to be a knitter. And so, the way that you express your love is through knitting. And I don't think that the curse or the jumper has anything to do with it. It has to do with the fact that it's not the right relationship. So the whole it goes, it goes and swings and roundabouts in the essay. I would highly recommend it. It's great.

Adam (59:10): But I also think with within what you've just read, possibly there was the answer. He said, you don't understand me.

Georgia (59:17): Yeah.

Adam (59:18): That could also be that he wasn't consulted on whether he wanted the jumper in the first place.

Georgia (59:23): No, he asked for it. So it says this in the beginning of the essay.

Adam (59:26): Okay.

Georgia (59:26): This is the other thing, is that he asks for it explicitly. They go to the shop. She's really excited. She makes it, and then he's like, oh, you don't understand me. I just think the reason that I'm particularly like, oh, I don't like him, just in that passage is where he goes like, oh, well when you are in your late twenties, you'll understand. Like, you'll be jaded then too.

Adam (59:46): Trust, trust me, Georgia, when you are, when you're 44, you'll understand.

Georgia (59:49): I can get that. But when you are boyfriend, when it's your like romantic partner who's like five minutes or older than you, in the grand scheme of things, like, it just, it kind of constantly pulls rank. Like not, not a vibe.

Adam (00:01): That is ridiculous.

Georgia (00:01): Not red flags. Red flags. So yeah. I'm glad I read that. Um, I got to read that out. I would highly recommend this book.

Adam (00:08): Lovely. we're gonna have to wrap up Georgia.

Georgia (00:09): Yes.

Adam (00:10): 'cause we've been talking for hours.

Georgia (00:12): Have,

Adam (00:14): Well, more than one, which gives you so much difficulty with editing.

Georgia (00:16): I mean, the small housekeeping thing that I'd meant to mention at the beginning. Our episodes have, in their titles, they have, numbers. So they'll say like, episode 17, episode 16. And I have this theory that actually that is probably a little bit off putting for people when they're looking to jump in. And especially because the first part of our, podcast, the first series was pretty much all Game of Wool. Um, Game of Wool is airing in Canada, apparently.

Adam (00:42): Mm.

Georgia (00:42): So maybe people will want to watch it alongside—

Adam (00:44): Georgia. You're going off on a big tangent here.

Georgia (00:46): No, what I'm trying to say is I am going to take out the episode bit, so it's just gonna say the subject. They'll still appear in order. But, if you see some changes on the website, " ooh, why is it like this? Why is the format changed?" That's why. So bear with, if suddenly everything goes, whoa, then uh, it'll be okay. There we go. That's my housekeeping. Done. Thank you. Goodbye.

Adam (01:10): You've, you've been listening to Yarn Library Podcast with me, Georgia Denim.

Georgia (01:13): And me, I know, I wasn't planning on doing the Dutch and you've thrown me off here. We—

Adam (01:19): I've caught you out. Sorry—

Georgia (01:20): Georgia. We don't do the outro like that. You do. You wanna get rid of the shush.

Adam (01:23): Well, you, we are gonna get rid of the shush. Yeah.

Georgia (01:25): Can we, continuity, can we get rid of it for the next season? Or do you wanna get rid of it now?

Adam (01:30): I dunno. I'm, I'm just, I'm very spontaneous.

Georgia (01:34): You can't just—

Adam (01:35): I'm giving you a meltdown. Can't, can't do something. Can't have an idea. Implement it.

Georgia (01:39): We can change it for next season. I'm not changing it now. Okay. I have a whole template. I click a button. It's done.

Adam (01:44): Okay.

Georgia (01:45): Alright. Um, sorry that was very rude and very harsh. Okay. Goodbye. So—

Adam (01:50): Goodbye. You've been listening to me, Adam Cleevely. Definitely not George Denham and my cohost who is...

Georgia (01:57): Evil.

Adam (02:01): Thank you for listening.