Friends

Georgia (00:00): Aren't I pretty?

Adam (00:01): When I'm in business, people laugh at the fact that I'm in craft. And when I'm in craft with people, people laugh at the fact that I'm in business.

Georgia (00:07): Not dad joke way, that's offensive to you. Sorry.

Adam (00:13): Welcome to the Yarn Library Podcast with me, Adam Cleevely

Georgia (00:16): And me, Georgia Denham at Tulipurl on Instagram.

Adam (00:19): We are for once with an agenda. I say, I was about to say without an agenda. 'cause we didn't have an agenda a minute ago.

Georgia (00:26): No, no. And then I, took an executive decision that we needed to take five minutes and actually write a list and not just be like, yeah, no, because when that happens, it don't go so well.

Adam (00:37): It can go a little bit all over the place. I mean, we always have a plan. We agreed what we were talking about last night.

Georgia (00:41): Yeah

Adam (00:41): That was, that was fine. But...

Georgia (00:44): Yeah

Adam (00:44): ...Now we have, we, now we have a real plan.

Adam (00:45): So we can start with housekeeping, Georgia, is there any housekeeping we need to go through?

Georgia (00:50): So we thought, no. But then I remembered

Adam (00:53): Since writing the agenda.

Georgia (00:55): Yeah, So for our non-visual listeners. I just very flamboyantly and not very elegantly, uh, hit something on the bookcase behind me pulling off. Wait – what have I done?

Adam (01:06): You just properly scared me because you nearly took out a very important Lego model for me, but you missed it, so that's fine.

Georgia (01:14): Okay, that's fine. So I just wanted to, show my ha... my chapter, chapter shawl, which I finished last week and have been wearing every day since I took it off the blocking mats.

Adam (01:24): It's, it's, It's absolutely beautiful Thank you. and I will describe it for those of you that are not looking at it right now, but it's, it's got lots and lots of different coloured sections and it's a mosaic knit.

Georgia (01:35): Yes.

Adam (01:35): So, it's got a lovely way of just carrying through the odd stitch from one row to the next. And so it creates lines of colours in two directions.

Georgia (01:44): Mm-hmm.

Adam (01:44): It's, it's very lo... it's very beautifully done.

Georgia (01:46): I mean, when we had a conversation about it when I was almost finished with it, I think last week or the week before, mosaic knitting actually came up with this and this is a conversation for probably a different podcast specifically, but it was really interesting, something that I realised as I was knitting it. My husband asked me a while ago, it was some her time over Christmas, he was doing some crochet things and he came across a reference to Mosaic knitting and he said, "oh, what is Mosaic knitting?" And I said, oh, it's kind of like a textural, it's got like more weight to it, like use different yarns and stuff. But I do, I've never actually, like, I've never been drawn to make and do a mosaic knitting pattern. So I haven't actually really looked it up, but I was associating it with like little square patterns and like zigzags and stuff.

Adam (02:30): Like a mosaic tile?

Georgia (02:31): Yeah, like a mosaic tile, which didn't really interest me on an aesthetic design level. And then we looked it up and I went, wait a second. That's like the pattern I'm knitting, so it turns out that I'd, well, I'd knit more than half of this before finding out it was mosaic knitting. It was a kind of mosaic knitting, but it really just goes to show you don't know what.

Adam (02:48): Yeah. And well, mosaic knitting is a wonderful technique. If you haven't tried it and you want to have colour work, then look up mosaic knitting patterns because it isn't colour work on the one hand because you don't, you're only ever knitting with one colour of yarn.

Georgia (03:00): Mm-hmm.

Adam (03:01): You're never having to worry about stranded. Uh, and then on the other hand, you end up with something that does have lots of different colours in it. Beautiful.

Georgia (03:07): Yeah. I've had so many people comment and say that it looked way more complicated and they assumed that it was not something that they would do because it was a texture that was unfamiliar to them.

Adam (03:15): Mm.

Georgia (03:16): It almost feels a bit waffly, like there's a, a depth to it.

Adam (03:19): Cause you've got it in garter stitch rather.

Georgia (03:20): Yeah, yeah, yeah...

Adam (03:20): Than just in stockinette.

Georgia (03:21): So I suppose that is a form of housekeeping, though. We don't want to be one of those podcasts that's just like, "oh, what... what's on your needles?" But it's just so...

Adam (03:29): The form, the form of housekeeping where you get to say, look, "I'm so fabulous".

Georgia (03:32): "Look at me."

Adam (03:32): I've

Georgia (03:33): "Aren't I pretty?"

Adam (03:35): "I've made something beautiful. Please admire me."

Georgia (03:38): I'm pairing it with a really bright pink dress as well, and I just feel like I came out of a candy shop.

Adam (03:43): Yeah. I, Georgia walked in and I was like, well, I really have to work my game today, and I have failed. All I managed to do is take one jumper off and put my most enormous too hot cardigan back on.

Georgia (03:55): Yeah. I remember when you were knitting that ages ago and you kind of talked about like, "yeah, I'm just gonna do like a really, fun, big, chunky knit" and you at the time weren't sure if you were actually gonna wear that. And you are, you've continued to wear it.

Adam (04:06): I mean, when I feel like wearing it, I love wearing it. So...

Georgia (04:09): Mm-hmm.

Adam (04:09): Today's one of those days, but just a pale insignificance in your shadow of brilliant colours, Georgia.

Georgia (04:15): Well...

Adam (04:16): Is that enough housekeeping for you?

Georgia (04:18): Yes, it is.

Adam (04:19): Do you want any more compliments?

Georgia (04:20): I was gonna do some like really cheesy, what's the word? Not dad joke way. That's offensive to you. Sorry....

Adam (04:26): It's not my children are cross about my dad jokes all the time.

Georgia (04:29): I wanted some to find some kind of really awkward, way of segueing into our topic today, which was to say that, "oh, well somebody in the friendship has to wear the bright colours, friend" um, which I forgotten what the word is to describe how awkward that was, but... cringey.

Adam (04:48): I mean, we're getting there.

Georgia (04:49): Cringey?

Adam (04:50): People are gonna come up with their own words, we are gonna try and talk about friendship, but, but just keep digging. I mean, I wanna see where this goes.

Georgia (04:57): So before we, started recording, we're finding our natural setup for recording these episodes is all going much, much better than it did in the past, but it did take a while today of going back and forth between several different mic settings for me to go, "Hmm, which one's gonna be better? Uh, maybe this one or that one". And so I joked with Adam that " quick we need to record the episode on Friendship so you remember why you're friends with me".

Adam (05:21): So why am I friends with you, Georgia?

Georgia (05:24): Well, I'm often the one who describes this because of the ethnographic study on this end, but Adam, I'm, I want you to describe this story because I always do it and um, I want you to do it.

Adam (05:35): There's real glee in your eyes.

Georgia (05:37): Yeah there is.

Adam (05:38): I'm walking into some enormous trap,

Georgia (05:40): Well, I think it's more interesting to hear it from your perspective probably, 'cause every other time that I've mentioned on the podcast, like, "oh yeah, how did I meet Adam?" I've always talked about how, "oh, we knew each other and then I asked you to do the ethnographic study".

Adam (05:51): Yeah. You know, that's funny. I wouldn't, I wouldn't describe that, although that was an important part of how we got to know each other. I think, it's an odd thing when you walk into knitting groups, and It's one of the reasons why I love knitting groups so much is I don't... I'm... like I'm not someone that's ever made friends easily in my life. I wouldn't say that I, like, I'm not someone that just walks into a room full of new people and just makes friends.

Georgia (06:11): Mm.

Adam (06:11): That's not me. In general, closer relationships have come through work where, you are already put into a setting where you are working with people and so on, and like, that's just me. But it means that I don't have loads and loads of close friends. That's not, that's just not who I am or how I, how I exist. But when I started knitting and when I started coming to knitting groups, in fact, the first time I went to knitting groups, I took a friend with me because I was like, I'm so scared of meeting people. (both laugh) Yes. In my forties, that is how I felt. Um, and it's a, it's, it's a bizarre thing but then the more I've done it, the more I realised actually, although you're walking into a different room every time you are walking, in a way, you are walking into the same room every time. And even though the people change and the settings change, there's something fundamental about what you're trying to do. There are a few exceptions to that, and I definitely wanna talk about those, but basically like, it's a very, very safe space or environment to go into.

Georgia (07:13): Sorry, I'm interrupting you, but I'm interested. Do like... do you feel that as a guy?

Adam (07:18): So that's the, that's the exception to the rule. That's exactly the exception to the rule because, there have been a few times where I've done it, where I've walked into a room and 100% I know that I haven't walked into a knitting group. I've walked into a women's circle. And that is, that is the group that has identified and formed all the rest of it. It may have, it may have been described as a knitting group to start with, but it is a, it is a group that a group of women have chosen as a...

Georgia (07:47): Mm-hmm.

Adam (07:49): I dunno the details of it, because it's very, it's kind of uncomfortable in a way because that actually the way that you're given glances or looks or whatever, or the way that people talk to you or don't talk to you know, you aren't welcome there. Or you're like, you weren't meant to turn up and like it (Georgia - "Awwh") ... that's not, it's not many. Well, I don't mind it. I wish there was clearer labelling about it.

Georgia (08:12): Mm-hmm.

Adam (08:12): I wish that there was a, an easier way to identify that, to stop mistakes happening. Um, but I mean, I, but I don't want to turn up into a group that actually is about women wanting to support women and be with women.

Georgia (08:28): Mm-hmm.

Adam (08:28): Like, I don't have a problem with gender groups like that. Um, I have a problem with labelling them as knitting groups and then allowing any knitters come along and not thinking about, well...

Georgia (08:37): Yeah,

Adam (08:38): What is going to happen when a male knitter comes along to this group? You know?

Georgia (08:41): Well, I suppose people just... it's so subconscious that like they just might not even think about it 'cause it's knitting and they might not even realise that they've got some kind of issue. But I suppose when, if you get a group of women around talking, you maybe talk about certain sensitive things or certain womanly things and you know, if you have that kind of dynamic and... you know, I've just been away with some friends over the weekend and there was one guy there, but they're also a nurse. So, when we were having, I dunno, contraception conversations or like all those kinds of things, everyone was still feeling like comfortable to talk about those kinds of things.

Adam (09:18): Yeah.

Georgia (09:18): But I suppose if you've got, especially if there's an unknown guy coming into a situation, then maybe it shifts the dynamic a bit. The point I'm getting at is that people don't realise that was a dynamic that was important for them. And so they might not think, oh, well we should have a women's knitting circle because they didn't realise that being able to talk safely with other women was an important thing for them.

Adam (09:41): Yes, exactly. Until all of a sudden a guy walked into it and they realised that the piece of glass that was there that they couldn't see, but all of a sudden they noticed it when it was shattered.

Georgia (09:49): Yes.

Adam (09:50): Because someone else has ruined it.

Georgia (09:53): Wow.

Adam (09:53): And that I don't, I mean, obviously that's not comfortable, it's not a nice thing, but I feel very strongly about going to knitting groups and knitting with other people because generally people who are doing that are all looking for the same kind of thing that both... there's a, people talk about in psychology, the kind of, discussion that happens when you're doing side by side craft. Um, and that's something, the charity that I participate in. "Sew Positive", again, that's a super important thing. That's charity in Cambridge, which is based on, started with people sewing and learning to sew, learning that craft skill because it was a side by side community teaching thing. It's very similar to a knitting group. You're doing all this side by side craft and you connect with the people next to you. And that when you are practised at that, when you used to doing that, then I guess there's kinda this familiarity with accepting that if someone wants to be there and they don't want to talk, then they're just gonna not talk. And if they are gonna talk, then they will chat. Um, but also, you get this interesting mix of introverts and extroverts and it's a lovely mix of personalities that tend to turn up. Um, and I've really enjoyed... I mean, it's one of the things that I love most about knitting is also like, not just being able to do it by yourself, but also being able to do it with other people.

Georgia (11:06): Mm-hmm.

Adam (11:07): So in terms of how we met, like I remember that you were one of the people that, I would bump into at our local craft group, at the, at the shop in Cambridge. You know that was a lovely thing that we would just, bump into each other and randomly have a chat and... and for me it was that sort of, it's that space. It's that sort of softer, getting to know other people where you identify, actually this is a person who I get along with.

Georgia (11:34): Yeah.

Adam (11:34): And, you don't actually realise the things that you have shared, the things you have talked about really. But if you've sat in a craft group with someone, I dunno, 10 or 20 times for a couple of hours a time, you've actually probably shared some pretty deep stuff.

Georgia (11:47): Yeah, for sure. You're reminding me of like... when you go to an organised group like that, there's going from being an acquaintance to like " are we friends?" Has this friendship developed outside of that sort of organised group? Funny side story actually about when we were getting to know each other. So there's a group of friends that... basically the people who went to our yarn group for a long time, the steady sort of regulars. Um, oftentimes it was basically just us and then maybe one new person who was trying out the shop would come and hopefully we didn't, alienate anyone by just being like all...

Adam (12:21): By being too cliquey.

Georgia (12:22): Yeah, so we were all getting quite close and it had been like a year thereabouts since we'd all been going to this yarn group. And then around like an August bank holiday or something, someone suggested, "oh, why don't we go for like a picnic? And actually that was like our first "Rogue Yarn Club" event that was separate from the shop. And, Adam's putting a bit of a face and looking bitter at me right now because all of us, this group of maybe like, I dunno...

Adam (12:51): Sorry, this was, this was gonna be my story, wasn't it? Well, this is my story. Want,

Georgia (12:54): No, this is your story!

Adam (12:55): You want, you want me to tell the story?

Georgia (12:56): Okay. No, I want you-

Adam (12:57): You absolutely excluded me from your "Rogue Yarn Club". That's what happened. You all set up a club without me. You literally, everyone else in that Yarn Club, it's like, oh yeah, I'm gonna set up a Yarn Club and let's, let's all just do some lovely knitting together. Who should we invite? Well, we like this person and this person and this person. Adam, that baah-er. Absolutely not. So yeah, I used to love going to Yarn Clubs, Georgia, and then, and then I was NFIed.

Georgia (13:25): What does NFI mean?

Adam (13:27): Not baah-ing invited.

Georgia (13:30): Alright. Okay so this says so many things about social dynamics, because the funny thing is that, I remember when you were first starting your Instagram, like, you were posting things and doing things and then we also knew you were really busy and had lots of businessy things going on, and you had kids. And maybe it was also the "male" dynamic, like, maybe it was also the fact that like you were a guy and we didn't wanna be like, weird and inappropriate asking like, a father of children and businessman who is like in a different demographic to us. We didn't wanna go out on a limb and add him to like a fun Instagram group chat, where we're all like, "yay, like Yolo". Actually none of us say "yolo", but you know, like, like millennial group chat.

Adam (14:16): Can I just put it on the record that I'm a millennial too... and your face is so insulting right now.

Georgia (14:22): Right, no, no. Do, Actually, what I was thinking is technically I'm not.

Adam (14:26): Oh, right then,

Georgia (14:27): So I'm on the cusp. But I had two older brothers and had a lot of hand-me-downs and we didn't have a lot of money, so I don't really feel like I connected with the culture of my own generation.

Adam (14:37): Through, through clothing you're connected through to?

Georgia (14:40): Like toys or games and things. I have more association with like, earlier nineties stuff

Adam (14:45): Okay

Georgia (14:45): Than actually like, of my own thing 'cause I just had like my brother's old stuff because I couldn't have the other ones. So...

Adam (14:51): You couldn't have the new cool stuff.

Georgia (14:53): Yeah, so I don't...

Adam (14:53): So I interrupted you because you were saying how we were different demographic.

Georgia (14:57): No, definitely no interrupted you.

Adam (14:58): And I was just checking that you were...

Georgia (14:59): "oh, yeah, you're a millennial" So, in our defence

Adam (15:02): Yeah.

Georgia (15:02): The reason that we did not include you was because we thought that you didn't want to be... we assumed, we wrongly assumed... like I can't remember a specific conversation, but I think the vibe was we didn't want to embarrass ourselves by asking Cleevely Knits to hang out with us. And then I ended up doing this ethnographic study thing with you, getting to know you, mentioning it, and then we had a, like a bit of an open conversation about it and realised that you'd felt excluded the whole time.

Adam (15:30): So excluded

Georgia (15:32): But genuinely all of us were like, "oh, well we can't... adam's too cool. Like, "oh, Adam doesn't wanna be our friend." And so we've not included you in any of the group chats. Sorry.

Adam (15:42): Yeah. That's the, I mean, and I think everyone will agree who's listening that is a fantastic excuse and Georgia and the rest of the crew have...

Georgia (15:50): It's true!

Adam (15:51): Have spent a long time really perfecting that story.

Georgia (15:54): Honestly. The day, no, the day that I got to go and deliver that information to our Rogue Yarn Club and say, "guys, Adams wanted to come to Rogue Yarn Club this entire time", and everyone was like, "oh, no". We were all gutted. And genuinely that is what happened. And I'm pretty sure that any person listening to this could understand if one of their friends was a blossoming. Well, acquaintances, one of their acquaintances was a blossoming, super cool, very busy influencer. And you were making a group and you were like, "oh, should we invite him? I don't know. Maybe that's too much. Like maybe we're being too keen." Um, and so we didn't invite you to the picnic. I'm so sorry.

Adam (16:31): I do understand. I do have it in my heart to understand, but it is fun pulling your leg about it.

Georgia (16:36): I know, I know, But there we go.

Adam (16:38): But as we've found many times, Georgia, that by, by communicating and talking about the problem.

Georgia (16:42): Yes, absolutely.

Adam (16:44): Funnily enough, that it just melts away and we can avoid the awkwardness

Georgia (16:49): It's funny because I know you said that I spoiled your story, because I asked you to tell the story. I didn't know if you were gonna mention that, because I didn't know if that was

Adam (16:55): Gonna still be No, I only think about it when you bring it up and remind me about it.

Georgia (17:00): Okay.

Adam (17:00): But I, that's the group you were away, away at the weekend and I think I did get an invite to that.,

Georgia (17:06): Yeah, you were absolutely invited, but you were busy doing your influencer business dad life, so...

Adam (17:14): Yeah, all the other stuff. But there we go. That's the genesis of our, of our friendship. But, but I think also what's, what's important about, friendships and relationships in knitting... I think there's, there is something just very special. I dunno, it's, it's not the same with absolutely everyone. You... of course you have better friends and you, and you connect with some people better than others.

Georgia (17:33): Mm-hmm.

Adam (17:33): But I've just found that, I mean, I don't get it as much anymore because I'm not anonymous in the same way that I used to be. Like before, I was just a person who would turn up and I could, I could just knit. Now, if I walk into a room of knitters, there's a reasonable chance that someone in that room has seen me knit before

Georgia (17:50): Mm-hmm.

Adam (17:51): Always like, " oh, where do I know you from?" and you know, so it's, it's not quite the same thing for me now, but, but that, there was a golden period. A golden period of having, of having the confidence and understanding that there were beautiful spaces to walk into. And before Instagram had got too big, then it was, then that was a lovely time.

Georgia (18:10): If you had to be some kind of influencer, I feel like it would be quite cool to be popular within a specific niche thing. So you could probably go to the supermarket most days and be totally like, fine. Like, no one's gonna bother you. No one, no one knows. If I mention the podcast to anyone, "they're like, oh, that's nice". And um, it's like, I know, it's just like, it's this thing. It's a thing. We're doing a thing.

Adam (18:32): I mean, the thing is with podcasts is there are so very many of them around and it's difficult to also, explain the scale of it and you know, and

Georgia (18:40): Number one, craft podcast in the UK (siren/laser sounds)

Adam (18:45): Exactly that. And that's, it's exactly that chat that gets us there as well.

Georgia (18:48): Yes.

Adam (18:50): Georgia's special sound effects, I think.

Georgia (18:52): Nyoow, nyoow, nyoow, nyoow (laser sounds).

Adam (18:54): And that's, that's why you've got a degree in music.

Georgia (18:56): It's 'cause I had a background as a singer.

Georgia (18:59): Because of the way that you've approached knitting and learning different techniques and that you are really like a sponge deliberately seeking out different information about different stitches or types and things. And when you go and sit with a friend, if I've got something in a pattern that's like really irking me or I can't figure out a stitch, being in those knitting circles can be a really excellent point to go and actually seek support and guidance. It kind of goes back to the concept "legitimate peripheral participation" (Lave and Wenger, 1991). About participating within a "community of practice" and that actually learning is happening through those situations.

Adam (19:29): Mm.

Georgia (19:29): And I think Also the social element of maybe in, if you're thinking about knitting specifically, maybe because knitting is more... predominantly women...

Adam (19:37): Mm.

Georgia (19:37): And so you get that more social frenzy, like sisterhood kind of element. And so I'm not saying that in exclusionary way. I'm saying this in a objective like observing kind of way of like, actually there is a, a kind of dynamic, a social dynamic that exists within knitting communities that I think demonstrates and illustrates those concepts of " learning through community of practice" This is not specifically about knitting, I think it's, where you have the opportunity to share a craft experience, it feels more obvious and more explicit because of the physical doing nature of craft. If you compared it to something else that wasn't say as inherently social or, as an obviously like moving the hands, that kind of thing

Adam (20:28): So I'm thinking about two different things here. One is the, charity group that I teach at, because I want to share with you how the dynamics work within there, 'cause I think that's quite interesting. But the other one that comes to mind, when you're talking is sitting at a pub, sitting in a pub and going in as a solo per, just by yourself and just going to sit at a bar because you wanna drink and you might get a bit of social company, you might get it from the barman you might get it from other people sitting at the bar. And that's an interesting place, I think, because having tried to do that a couple of times in my life, like I can find that quite socially isolating because actually there's very high pressure to either... you don't know whether you're gonna engage with anyone quickly or the rest of it. You've also, there's, there's a drink and a cost involved in that as well. Um, and it's, it's a, it's a weird thing, but, but when it does work and when you're in a pub with other, with other people, if they're randoms,

Georgia (21:18): Mm-hmm.

Adam (21:18): You still can have a fairly high quality conversation with someone, which, which matters to you and gives you human connection.

Georgia (21:27): Mm-hmm.

Adam (21:27): It's not necessarily the healthiest environment to be doing it in all the time, but it is there and I think that there's, that sort of quiet participation in a social activity also exists in a bar. And I think, possibly that maybe that's more of a gendered difference because you'd... that's a place you might go more so as a, as a man than a woman. I don't know. Well, certainly that's my lived experiences that I would see more of that. But the other, the other place that I was talking about it where, where I, teach in this charity sew positive, that's really interesting because there are normally about two groups, so we separate people into, or people can self-select into more chatty table and a quieter table We have this chatty group and then we have a quiet group and that allows people the sort of two main paradigms of how you want to craft. One of which is, "I am here because I want to talk" and the other one is here. "I'm here 'cause I don't want to talk".

Georgia (22:29): Mm-hmm.

Adam (22:29): But I still get something out of being in the presence of other people who are doing some, who doing something similar to me.

Georgia (22:35): Yeah.

Adam (22:35): And that like, I love that because unlike I guess any other knitting group that I go to, the only people that are turning up really are people that do want some socialising and generally are gonna engage with the group, are gonna try and engage with the group. Absolutely. The, in this charity teaching environment. It's absolutely not that. There are the difference, the different groups. There's the chatty group and the not chatty group. And then sometimes we have people that sit even further away from that just to try and decrease the amount of noise that they've got.

Georgia (23:05): I feel like knitting and a craft is just sort of a, generally speaking, pretty naturally selecting group of compassionate and maybe difference aware kinds of people as well. So, oh, Rufus. That's the dog barking. I feel like crafters it's sort of inherently practical, doing something with your hands making something, you've gotta be kind of practically orientated to the realities of the situation of what you need to do to make something happen. And I feel like that practicality also extends to a kind of practical, straightforward compassion when it comes to adjustments for people. So when you're talking about different tables and like, someone being more social, someone wanting more quiet, someone sitting completely separately, I feel like I've experienced a kind of a default acceptance of difference. And, maybe there are more neurodiverse people... tends to be, floating around craft circles, maybe, not exclusively, but... I joined the Knitting (and Crochet) Guild.

Adam (24:08): Oh, did you?

Georgia (24:09): Yes, I did.

Adam (24:10): That's exciting.

Georgia (24:10): I actually joined the Knitting Guild (and Crochet) and when I joined I was going through their like, their resources and their information about they have an annual conference right. I was looking at the annual, annual conference information and reading through their different rules for the weekend and how everything was structured. It didn't advertise itself as being like explicitly, neurodiverse friendly or like accessible or anything like that, but the way that it described things like respecting people's pronouns or respecting, different people's needs or, well, the social thing: at some of the events, so like the dinners and stuff, they have different tables labelled like, "I want to make friends" and like, "I'd prefer a quiet dinner". Just the acceptance of that as a default.

Adam (24:54): Yeah.

Georgia (24:54): Is I don't think I've ever seen that in any kind of other...

Adam (24:59): Yeah. I...

Georgia (24:59): ...Group.

Adam (25:00): I go back and forth with it as well, because on the one hand, I completely agree with that. And like, if, if you asked me to describe all knitters and crocheters, I will accept that they're crocheters and that group as well, or all crafters, I would say like, 'lovely' would be the first word that would come to mind. But, but it would then be, kind, empathetic, warm, open, like, like they're good words. But I also, i'm, I'm still confused by that because it seems, the complete abundance of those wonderful energies that you come, come away with of those wonderful descriptive words seems, it seems impossible in a way.

Georgia (25:40): Mm-hmm.

Adam (25:40): And I wonder as well about myself, whether it is purely because actually knitting has unlocked something for me where I can carry that energy into a room, and therefore that's what I see reflected back more easily.

Georgia (25:52): Yeah. Maybe everyone is just turning up as their best selves.

Adam (25:55): Yeah. We better be on our best behaviour. Or else Georgia's gonna exclude us from the WhatsApp group.

Georgia (26:01): No, I don't mean that. I mean, like, knitting brings out the very best in people.

Adam (26:04): Oh, I see. I see. I'm just taking that personally again. Um, yeah, I don't know but it, but it is interesting, right? Like, it, you can't take it 'cause it's not, it doesn't just, you can't make a rule for this, like five or ten people that you miss in an knit group and then say, well, it's true for the next ten people and it's true for the next group. And then you extend it to hundreds and thousands of people.

Georgia (26:24): I feel almost like cliched and not that analytical by going, "everyone's so lovely" because it is, when you've got that many people, it's, it's not. But I think something I really love about the friends I've made in knitting is that, we all have something in common, right? But, I think maybe because I had a background in music and as a composer and I didn't go to a university to do music, I went to a conservatoire. So it was a relatively small, like, you had 300, 400 people at a conservatoire. Everyone there is studying like how to play an instrument, how to compose music, how to sing, uh maybe had to do music tech stuff or... That's it, right?

Adam (27:02): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (27:02): And when you are in that environment, I basically like for four, or five years was only friends with musicians. It wasn't deliberate. It wasn't 'cause I only wanted to be music friends with musicians, it was just that my social environments were only musicians and so I didn't really have the opportunity to make friends beyond that. And knitting is a really interesting thing where you have people joined through this shared interest in some activity. Um, but then they're also coming to that with probably a very different day job. Like, I have a background as a composer, you do businessy stuff. Sorry, I'm diminishing it to that. Um, reducing it to that. But the, that's the thing. We don't have a lot of shared context. If it weren't for knitting, we might not really cross paths. In our sort of circle of the Rogue Yarn Club that you're very much a part of. Adam, of course, don't worry at all. You're definitely not excluded and you're very much a core member. We've got software engineer. We've got, a, a therapist... That's helpful.,

Adam (28:07): You've got more than one therapist.

Georgia (28:09): Yeah, we've got another person training to be a therapist

Adam (28:11): Therapist in training and therapist.

Georgia (28:11): Therapist. Yeah. Very helpful. We've got a careers advisor. Gosh, it is just a great group. Um, we've got

Adam (28:18): Nurse.

Georgia (28:19): Yes. A nurse already mentioned. Um, Someone who's amazing at admin and logistics someone, with a... oh my goodness, a PhD in mediaeval literature who gave the most excellent quiz for us on Saturday night. Incredible. Incredible.

Adam (28:32): But you're right in that knitting, knitting perhaps is another way of cutting through different groups of, society or professionalism, all the rest of it,

Georgia (28:42): Yeah.

Adam (28:43): Which, which takes you out. Like it's just another way of dividing up, cut through other cliques that you might get involved in

Georgia (28:49): Mm-hmm.

Adam (28:49): And just brings you into a new one where again, you've got something in common.

Georgia (28:52): Mm-hmm.

Adam (28:52): You know, just like how people end up, neurodivergent, people end up marrying other neurodivergent people and or, first born people tend to partner up more, they're more likely to partner up with other firstborns. Yeah. You know, there are, there are these sort of subconscious traits that you identify in other people that make you...

Georgia (29:10): And maybe there's something about when you find a, a group of people or, or some kind of "community of practice" that really cuts across different, other sectors.

Adam (29:20): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (29:21): And other places, if you play badminton for example, people might have different kinds of jobs, but then they all might, they might be really sporty because they're going to a badminton group well enough to make friends with other badminton players. But I feel like in the craft communities that I've been a part of, you have people who are really from, from different places. I grew up in the Peak District like going on walks. Very core, core thing for me. Um, and not really of interest that much to other people. You know, when we went away the weekend. There is this wonderful thing that's happened Uh, now on both times we've done these little trips where I've just like gone off for three, four hours. No one's held it against me. Last time we went to the late District, I just like went out in my scout gear and I didn't realise that I went to do that to have some kind of like neurodivergent quiet, recharge time. But that's totally what it was. I came back and I was just like glowing with dew and mountains and mud I was covered in mud and I came back and everyone else had been cosily knitting. No one held it against me. You discover yourself, things about yourself more when you are with different people. And I feel like it's a very healthy, broad situation and I'm really grateful that I have friends beyond what would've been had I not gone to a knitting group.

Adam (30:35): Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I totally recognise that. The interesting thing for me about, about that is also the way in which your personality gets reflected on other people and you, and you see those different elements come back. And I agree that like understanding neurodivergence as a thing has been something that's been fascinating for me too, because understanding knitting circles, again, if you talk to me 10 years ago, 20 years ago. My view of a knitting circle would've been a, a very much stereotyped understanding of what a knitting circle is now it is still stereotyped, but in a different way.

Georgia (31:10): That's so funny.

Adam (31:10): You know, I describe it now as, some of them, some of, sometimes when I go, I feel like I've been in a sort of group therapy session. And that's interesting that as a format of socialising survives now and has survived for a long time.

Georgia (31:24): Mm-hmm.

Adam (31:25): And I think, for me that's fascinating because it's... that's never been something I've been able to access in that way.

Georgia (31:32): Mm-hmm.

Adam (31:32): And it's a comfortable way of doing it.

Georgia (31:35): Where you're talking about that format existing for a long time and still existing, but in a different way. So I've brought along, The Culture of Knitting by Joanne Turney, St. Joanne Turney, I call her (Turney, 2009). It's a really, really wonderful book... in the chapter "Knitting: A Gendered Pursuit", it talks about knitting groups, how maybe historically they were kind of set regular places where people didn't have phones to communicate with people, that kind of stuff. Women in a community would gather together, at a set time. And so it was, there was a social element to it, of course, but actually, if you're thinking about knitting historically, and I'm totally aware that like there's lots of instances historically where knitting has been something that men do as well. So I'm, I'm not saying it to the exclusion of that or ignorant of that, but if you think about it, from that woman perspective, where knitting was a, an essential thing to do, because it was a, a means for warm clothing for your family and was your job

Adam (32:33): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (32:33): As a housewife, as a, as a woman. You know, those groups have continued through that but now it's reframed where it's not about I'm doing this as a necessity, it's actually I'm doing this thing that's kind of completely unnecessary because I can, and when you go to these knitting groups, you have consuming power as well because you're buying a coffee, you're buying the yarn, all that kind of stuff. I'm gonna read this little section. " The popularity of knitting groups, which are primarily the domain of women, highlights a post-feminist belief that women have substituted romantic narratives with same sex friendships and consumer goods, which allows women to have equality in relationships and exert their power in the marketplace. ie. one needs to spend money on yarn needles and maybe a pattern, but also on food and drink when knitting in a specific arena such as a bar or a coffee shop. Also, post feminism encourages women to spend time on themselves rather than on a man. So knitting for personal pleasure is indicative of this, especially when the item being knitted is ( in quotes) useless." So I kind of love that. And I also having just, read like two Jane Austen books, like one after the other.

Adam (33:44): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (33:44): It's kind of interesting the idea about like shifting emphasis more on friendships and it says same sex friendships here, but you know, I think you could expand that to be thinking about "friendships" as well. I think just moving away from an emphasis on... you know, if you think about Jane Austen, like a lot of time is spent in Jane Austen, like trying to find a husband, like culturally. Um, and women don't have to do that anymore.

Adam (34:06): Mm.

Georgia (34:06): And so I get to spend my time... I mean, I do have a husband to be fair, but I get to knit, and have my own time, which is kind of nice. And so it is interesting thinking about how those. How a knitting circle has transformed from what it was once, which was a shared community of necessity into a shared community of liberation and choice.

Adam (34:29): Well you say, you say shared community of necessity, but I don't see that they like it. It isn't necessary. 'cause you can always do it solo. Like that's always a choice you have. And I don't think that,...

Georgia (34:40): But as in, each individual is doing it from a point of necessity.

Adam (34:43): Oh, I see. That, the knitting itself is done

Georgia (34:46): And arguably interaction with other people would be more important if, if anything, when you didn't have access to, resources like the internet or published patterns, that kind of thing. It was more important to meet as a community and share a practice, and communicate skills than, They're not. So yeah, you can practise it as an individual, but actually probably individual practice, become more of a modern thing because you can hang around on the internet and not...

Adam (35:17): You can, you can hone your expertise...

Georgia (35:18): Yeah.

Adam (35:19): Independently....

Georgia (35:20): Yeah...

Adam (35:20): I mean there, there's absolutely no way that, in the four years that I've knitted, I would be able to knit the things that I can knit if I had only been locked away in some small community, no access to the internet. And the only person I was learning to knit from,

Georgia (35:35): Mm-hmm.

Adam (35:36): Was, was one other in that community, is very unlikely that you'd get exposed to the rich tapestry of all the other techniques you can come across.

Georgia (35:45): You know, we say independently, but even if you're not commenting, engaging anything on a post, if you're not like making friends on the internet and talking to them. You are still engaging with other people's resources, other people's, like the authors of stuff, other people's content to learn to do it. So if you think to "legitimate peripheral participation" model and of " communities of practice" like even if you're on the periphery socially, like, I still think that people are still so integral and important to that. I mean, you are, you're big on the social, the social things. And you've been doing that actively for a long time. Do you think it's easier to think of yourself more as an individual if you are engaging virtually?

Adam (36:31): So the question is, do you perceive an individual identity, even if you are having a lot of contact online?

Georgia (36:39): As in when you said about like working independently, sorry. Do you think that as someone who participates online... how do I phrase this question? Please, adam. Will you talk about interacting with the community online? And how that differs from an in-person community?

Adam (36:55): So the interacting online for me is a really interesting one and it's gone through so many different phases. So, I mean, my Instagram's really only been a thing for 15 months or something. Um, and in that time I've been through these peaks and troughs of different kinds of engagement during that time. And so one of the things that happens is like early on I got a huge number of direct messages and that was then one-on-one communication with lots of people. And that was brilliant and that was wonderful to form relationships on, on that basis and sort of get chatting with people and, you just find friends. Um, but then, as time went on, I think as the account got bigger in a way, people stop direct messaging you because they don't expect it anymore.

Georgia (37:42): Mm.

Adam (37:42): Or they don't expect a reply. Now, I have always tried as best I can to reply to certainly to start with, I replied to every message I ever received. And then that sort of had to, that's taken steps back. So I can't reply to every comment I get on every post that I stopped at around, I dunno, somewhere 30,000 followers or something It became, I couldn't do that anymore. Um, but I think the way in which you respond still shows the community, the type of, person you are and the type of personality that your community has.

Georgia (38:18): Mm.

Adam (38:19): And you see that, and I, I follow other creators who have the same thing. You know, the, they have a very strong identity of the way in which they do communicate with people. And so, if it turns out that one of their posts goes live and they can't follow up the q and a immediately afterwards, you'll see other people just doing it for them because they know what the community space expects of that group. And so that's an interesting kind of way of forming a community because again, I wouldn't recognise basically anyone in the street from, from that group. But there is still that sense and feeling of community that people, that I feel a sense of belonging to. And I think some other people also feel a sense of belonging to, or they certainly know what the shared identity is within that group. And that's a, that's an interesting thing for me. And then the other, the other sort of extension of that, now that I test knit, for example, test knitters are another group of community now. It's really interesting who within the knitting world and designer space who creates forums for test knitters and who wants knitters to act in isolation. And some designers out there will send out test knits and expect everyone to work in isolation. And some do a community. And there are advantages and disadvantages to both from the design point of view. Um, it can be very overwhelming when you get lots of feedback. But on the other hand, what I love about that when you create the group is that you have this group of like completely random people drawn together from all over the planet. Different language skills, different, all the rest of it, but still this one, you've got a few things in common. One, you're a knitter if you're in my test group. For the second thing, you are all trying to achieve a shared goal, which is understanding, clarifying a pattern, making sure that it's publishable and that is enough. That's enough to form a very strong community identity, and create a lovely, a lovely space for a few weeks.

Georgia (40:19): Mm-hmm.

Adam (40:19): Even if it doesn't necessarily last, although I'm sure some testing communities last a long time because of that. Because there is such a strong shared identity there. But it, it just comes down to, it comes down to that space.

Adam (40:31): But that, this is also a reason why I created Make a Getaway with Louise, because...

Georgia (40:37): Sorry, I didn't mean to laugh. I wanted to give you space. I'm sorry.

Adam (40:41): What's what's so funny about It?

Georgia (40:43): It was just like, "oh, this is another reason I created", I'm sorry. I shouldn't be making fun of you. I'm not making fun of you.

Adam (40:49): Sorry. This is-

Georgia (40:50): Not, I'm just having, I just had a reaction.

Adam (40:52): This is, this is my, so this is the problem. You see, when I'm in business, people laugh at the fact that I'm in craft. And when I'm in craft, people laugh at the fact that I'm in business.

Georgia (41:01): Got no hope, Adam.

Adam (41:03): I'm not apologising...

Georgia (41:04): No!

Adam (41:04): ...For trying to make a living out of knitting.

Georgia (41:06): I have no, I commend you.

Adam (41:08): I'm glad to put a smile on your face, but it's part, it's, it's one of the reasons why I wanted to do more of this community stuff because I want to bring more people together. I'm excited to meet new people, to bring different groups of people together, to do different things. Some of the make a getaway things are about learning, and they will have structured programmes of like the, these are lessons you will go to over a period. Some of them are just there to provide time and space.

Georgia (41:33): Mm-hmm.

Adam (41:33): And I'm really interested to see different types of people that turn up to those different groups

Georgia (41:37): Mm-hmm.

Adam (41:37): And you know, how, how those spaces work.

Georgia (41:40): And you know what, to back you up on this, I laughed, right, because it's not, it's out of my, like my life journey at the moment to go on like a planned, cool knit. I'd love to, and hopefully one day when I'm not a student I could...

Adam (41:57): Mm-hmm.

Georgia (41:57): ...But I laughed because yeah, the, it's, it's not something that's a viable option for me now. And maybe for many listeners, it's also not a viable option. But the thing is that actually, not have to plan anything and it actually be like tailored and orientated enough to my specific interests of knitting. It's kind of a dream situation.

Adam (42:16): Yeah.

Georgia (42:16): And I was like, if I had the resources to do that, I would do that. Because I, I did a sort of a makeshift version with friends at the weekend, but we all split jobs and like have a rota for cooking.

Adam (42:29): Hmm.

Georgia (42:29): But like just being able to pay for someone to provide that for me, I think is a, is actually a very positive thing.

Adam (42:36): I mean, the price point thing is a, is an interesting one as well because, you are right, you can do it from the extraordinarily cheap version where essentially you don't leave your house or, you can, you can try and create that yourself and you can just scale it up and up and up and up.

Georgia (42:49): Yeah.

Adam (42:49): And there are retreats in the world, knitting retreats, or that variety of the knitting holidays, which charge up to about one and a half thousand pounds per night, effectively.

Georgia (42:58): I know.

Adam (42:59): And those are, those are viable holidays. So the first one that's coming up is a, is a test, but we very much want to split strategy and make a more affordable one. I, it Like when I say affordable there are just some economics of it you can't get past. But also then allowing more expensive ones to kind of subsidise cheaper ones or cheaper events that we can run. Um, because you know, I think they're important and yeah, they're not accessible for everyone. But then...

Georgia (43:27): I remember when you launched it, there was, someone in the comments saying, actually that's a really reasonable price for what it is. And that's the thing, you've got like spa, you've got like all your meals, fancy meals, you've got excellent, excellent knitting classes, excellent crochet classes with Louise.

Adam (43:44): I'm questionable company, but you get to choose that. It should be a fun thing to do.

Georgia (43:47): It should be a fun thing. So I'm sorry that I laughed because actually you are providing a viable service for... that sounds like I'm being sarcastic, but I'm not. I'm genuinely not. I think it's a good thing.

Adam (43:58): Thank you.

Adam (43:59): The only other online community thing, the o, the other strong relationship that I wanna talk about is where I have started talking to other influencers in the knitting and craft space. And they are amazing for, for help. And my first experience with that was talking to Lisa, who's Get to Hooking Crochet. Um, I really hope she's gonna be on this podcast at some point

Georgia (44:24): That'd be nice.

Adam (44:24): 'Cause everyone sees online this beef that we have with each other, that we have this, this, this, ongoing spat uh, knitting versus crochet Brits versus Americans, whatever it is that there's, there's this animosity between us. It is born of such high respect and such good understanding of boundaries between us and what we are trying to achieve, both comedically and with our craft. All the rest of it. We have had a lot, I say a lot of conversations. Maybe it's, maybe it's not masses, like it's not as much as you and me, Georgia, but we've had such detailed conversations about. Who we believe we are online and what we want to achieve. And we've been clear about things that we will say and won't say online because it isn't true to who we are or true to our audiences. And, I really value the relationship with Lisa because it is so well sort of curated behind the scenes or, or at least set up behind the scenes that we're able to then have this dance, in front of everyone where we understand that and we understand everything that we need to about each other in order that we can have that social play. Some people get it, some people don't. But it is, it is another example of a, of a relationship online, which I dunno, it's a funny one because some hand, some people might look at that and think, that doesn't look healthy. But for me it is an incredibly healthy relationship and comes from such a good place

Georgia (46:00): Yeah.

Adam (46:01): Couldn't not mention it.

Georgia (46:02): It's always very playful and funny and when one of you posts a video, I'm like, what are they doing now?

Georgia (46:08): To kind of wrap up this conversation, the passage I read earlier from the Joanne Turney, Culture of Knitting. There's this other section, it's in Knitting Narratives, Biographies and Identities, page 147, and it's the, paragraph that closes up the section on knitting groups. And I just think this kind of gives a really lovely rounding off to everything we discussed, so: "Knitting in groups is undertaken by individuals for a variety of reasons. And regardless of the personal choices for participation, the popularity of such groups has increased rapidly. Knitting in groups highlights the social aspect of the craft. It offers a forum for conversation as well as for making friends. It also encourages, and to a certain extent, revives oral craft traditions and whilst contributing to personal life narratives contributes to the narratives of knitting. To suggest that this return is merely the expression of some form of ironic, retrogressive gaze is rather naive, as Minahan and Wolfram Cox suggest, for young women and young men as well, knitting offers a new form of connectivity that challenges gendered roles and spheres in which the creation of material culture is an expression of social cultures. Knitting and natter contribute to personal and collective narratives of both makers and the making of objects."

Adam (47:23): That's all we've got time for on the...

Georgia (47:26): Yarn Library