Game of Wool

Adam Cleevely (00:00): Sorry, if Holger's listening, Holger, didn't mean to call you warm.

Adam (00:03): Was it two people singing on stage to guitars? Basically singing this song about cremation.

Georgia Denham (00:09): I kept thinking that there must be some kind of pun I'm not getting.

Adam (00:17): Welcome to the new podcast. So this is the Yarn Library podcast, which I am starting. It's our first ever episode with my friend, Georgia. You'll probably know me from CleevelyKnits, it's my Instagram account. If you don't already follow me there, please go and follow, but more importantly, please come and follow and like and subscribe and do all the things you have to do to a podcast, to this episode, and to this series because I'm very excited that this is gonna be a thing. I've got too many thoughts to share on Instagram.

Adam (00:43): Before I start rambling too much, I want to introduce Georgia. So Georgia, do you want to explain, just say hello and who you are?

Georgia (00:49): Yeah. So, I mean, how did we meet? Sorry, I'm thinking about Holger and what he said about being a vegetarian.

Adam (00:55): So we're already jumping straight into the Game of Wool. We're totally going to talk about the Game of Wool.

Georgia (01:03): I am a friend of Adam's and we met at a yarn club. So I'm a local to Cambridge. I'm a PhD student here, originally from Sheffield. And I was doing a course where I had to do an ethnographic study of a craftsperson. And so naturally, as a knitter myself, asked Adam if he could give me bit of insight into how he actually learned to knit as quickly as he did because it's not been that many years you've been knitting really. I mean.

Adam (01:28): No, less than four years. And most people are shocked by that, aren't they?.

Georgia (01:33): Yeah, exactly. So we talked a lot about that, and it was like eight, ten weeks, I want to say, something like that, last winter.

Adam (01:39): Best 10 weeks ever.

Georgia (01:41): Well, I would basically come round and fully like, know, "PhD research" – would come round and basically talk to you about knitting and your relationship to knitting and the different practice stuff. We talked a lot about different ideas like craft and art and is knitting art and...

Adam (02:00): And we're definitely gonna come onto that. But I mean, you see it as doing an ethnographic study of me and knitting and I very much saw it as therapy because you would come round with big open questions in a notebook and you would be listening to me just ramble on and give you very long-winded answers about how and why.

Georgia (02:22): It was the best. It was the best. And I felt like I had my own personal CleevelyKnits podcast in a way.

Adam (02:27): Exactly! So when I've been asked for a CleevelyKnits podcast for a long time, lots of people want to hear more. And hopefully this helps discharge that and gives an avenue for it. But you're the perfect person to do it with because I think think we've already covered some topics and we've got quite an exciting, I hope, season of podcasts coming up.

Georgia (02:52): It's funny that we didn't actually instinctively think when we were having these great conversations for like two hours a week that, oh, well, this would make an excellent podcast. Because I listen to podcasts a lot, and knitting podcasts a lot, but I just didn't, I think because I had a different hat on. I had my research hat on.

Adam (03:07) I think also if we go back to January, February last year. In terms of social media, I had like, thousand followers at that time. It wasn't a thing. I wasn't into social media in the way that I am now. And it's not, in a way it's not long, but on other hand, a lot's changed.

Georgia (03:23): And I also probably was in a different place with what I'm doing in my PhD and my research. So I was kind of like, you know, wouldn't have wanted to touch a podcast or something. I wouldn't have felt like I was confident to share those ideas. So yeah, for context, my PhD is four years. I'm in that final push now of getting to the place of writing up all my chapters.

Adam (03:47): Final push, that's last three or four years, isn't it?

Georgia (03:48): Yeah, so I should probably say, my background is as a composer. So I studied to be a composer in my undergrad and then my masters when I moved to Cambridge. And then I became really interested in actually how composers are composers and all about their process and how that all works. And the start of my PhD, I also started knitting again after a really long time. I realized that actually learning to knit was a lot more accessible compared to trying to learn a lot of these kind of techniques in composition.

Adam (04:26): So I think we have to save that for another podcast episode because I think it is such a fascinating subject and we had such good discussions about learning to compose versus learning to knit, and the stigma attached to the learning process in arts versus crafts and the formal processes involved. I mean, it is a fascinating topic and.....

Georgia (04:47): For sure. And I think my only reason for mentioning it is just to say, don't get too excited. I'm not solely a knitting researcher.

Adam (04:57): Cambridge University hasn't opened up a department of knitting yet. Not quite yet, no. So ⁓ I basically look at how composers could apply a craft way of thinking to being a composer. So that's my context. And have been super excited ever since they said there was gonna be some kind of Game of Wool-esque knitting bake-off situation. I feel like I manifested it partly...

Adam (05:25): We all need to thank Georgia from the bottom of our hearts for that.

Georgia (05:28): I just, I would always imagine like maybe, maybe one day we've got pottery now, we've got, what else have we got? We've got Bake Off, Pottery, Sewing Bee. Yeah, Sewing Bee. I just thought, mean, knitting would be great. And here we are, here we are.

Adam (05:44): Here we are, and it is time. So we are recording this on the Monday after the first airing, which was on Sunday evening. And it's time for us to talk about what you made of the episode, what I made of the episode. Do you wanna go first, do you want me? I'm gonna go first. I, overall, so I've been more of a fan of the Bake Off over the last few years, and I'm a big fan of that whittle type program where it's a competition–

Georgia (06:14): Whittle type? Whittle. Sorry, I just think you're saying little with a lisp! What's a whittle type program?.

Adam (06:21): A whittle program is where you start with a number of contestants and it's whittled down.

Georgia (06:25): Oh, whittled down. I've never heard that before.

Adam (06:27): Episode by episode. So we got introduced to all the characters last night. I love the idea of it. I will say at the outset, I absolutely loved the content of the show and all the rest of it, but I felt like there was some warming up that was sort of going on through the episode. And I feel like I'm more looking forward to episode two, not just because of the content, but also because I feel like there's that chemistry that, you know, I want to see.

Georgia (06:58): Everyone has just, well – the way I thought about it was kind of like when you go to a yarn group, a knitting circle, crochet included too of course. When you go to one of those situations, I remember the first time I went to the knitting group where I met Adam and I was quite, I was reserved you might say, or not reserved, I was just a bit more quiet because I was trying to get the gauge of the room, I didn't know who knew each other. And there's also a weird thing that happens when you're in a yarn group where you're a new person, but then because not everyone is there all the time or someone else might be a new person, you don't know if the other person's a new person, so no one really ends up talking. Of course, that isn't true in this Game of Wool context, but I think there is a warming up that needs to happen.

Adam (07:45): But you could see, I mean, instantly last night, I was struck by, there was an instant warmth and chemistry between Holger and Simon as an example, and that was just wonderful to see.

Georgia (07:55): Was that just warmth from Simon?

Adam (07:58): Sorry, if Holger's listening, Holger, didn't mean to call you warm like that towards Simon. You were clean and precise in your interactions.

Georgia (08:07): I love Holger so much. His one-liners. I already joked at beginning about the vegetarian meat thing. I just love that we were all waiting for him to say in that phrase about, "knitting with chunky yarn is like asking a vegetarian to express themselves..." and he thinks of the word. And he doesn't just go for the obvious "meat", he goes for "steak". "It's like trying to ask a vegetarian to express themselves with steak". And I felt his feelings in –

Adam (08:40): I felt so seen by Holger at that moment. I mean, he has to get through to the final just because his banter is absolutely top notch.

Georgia (08:49): I know, I know. And when he moved the sofa, they'd already put that in the advert, so we kind of knew that it was around. But I just, yeah, he was definitely–

I will say though, there was some moments, not just from Holger, there was some moments that I felt like the editing and pacing, you know, because it's not just the contestants who are getting in a rhythm of this and trying to figure out what it is. It's also the people in production. And I felt like there were some moments where there could have been some more comedy gold as we have those like funny, you know, funny timed moments in say Bake Off. So the one I'm thinking of particularly is when they all sat around to do the sofa challenge. And I think it was maybe Stephanie who said, life coach, is that Stephanie? Yeah, Stephanie was like, "has anyone done this before?" And there's a brief pause and then a few people like in unison go, "No." And when I listened to it and I actually went back to kind of refresh, to be honest, figuring out exactly who all the people were, because we knew we were gonna be doing this. And I saw that moment and I thought, it didn't strike me the first time I watched it. And that could have been like with the right music or the right pause or editing, could have been hilarious. And I feel like there was some moments where we didn't get that.

Adam (10:07): I totally agree. I mean, to me, it very much feels like, how do we take the successful show of the Bake Off and then recreate it with yarn. And I guess you've got to do that as your starting point because you've got to set like, let's take something successful and let's build – I hope they're looking at it – let's build from that. But I'm sure the producers, everyone, I mean, there must be 20 people behind the camera talking about it. I'm sure that all of them will have to go back into it and be thinking, okay, they'll spot those moments later. And then either in episode two or even in season two. But I'm here for it. How many times has a friend told you, go and watch these five series of XYZ, but you've got to bear with it for the first episode or two or the first five episodes. You're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. It's worth, I absolutely, it's got gold. It's got gold all over it.

Georgia (11:00): Exactly. And I think that your point about the comparison with Bake Off. I mean, everyone's naturally making that because it's such a standard of the "whittle down" shows in this country. So I had wondered if we were to go back to like the very earliest seasons of Bake Off when it was still on BBC, if that would have had some of the same like "What's going on here?" kind of energy. Yes, you had experienced broadcasters involved like Mel and Sue and Mary Berry, who's been on the TV a lot, and Paul Hollywood. But like, I'm curious to go back to them.

Adam (11:39): That's such a good point. But it's interesting because Mel and Sue, for example, have a natural chemistry behind them and together as a pair. You know, for a long, they've got a long history of being together on screen or on stage. And Tom is up there doing that entirely by himself. And that is a tough gig. I'm not doing this podcast solo because I can't talk by myself. I could try talking by myself.

Georgia (12:09): You need your little sip and tea breaks.

Adam (12:10): Exactly. And that's why it's easier to do things as a pair.

Georgia (12:16): I'm just remembering that that moment where really early on in the episode, Tom said something like "boss stitches". And like, there was nowhere for it to bounce off other than everyone kind of getting the joke and then being like "hahahaha", and you know, and like a weird awkwardness around it, but actually it's really funny. So yeah, I think it's going to take some time until everyone else is comfortable being that bouncing or sounding board.

Adam (12:45): They have to be the foil for Tom and I think he needs that and maybe it's something– I read somewhere that they were going to have guest appearances on there and so maybe they've got that coming in. Maybe Alison from the Bake Off will come and do a visit or Noel. I mean it would be exciting but I think that would help Tom more in terms of how the show is seen because then you're also then looking to Di and Sheila for that chemistry and they've got a different kind of relationship. And they've got a different kind of friendship as well. They, I don't know whether you know, but they have a long history of having worked together. They know each other extremely well. And so they obviously have a way of working with each other, but also they are quieter people than Tom is obviously more out there as an extroverted or the ability to present an extroverted person.

Georgia (13:41): But that's one of the things I love so much about sort of a yarn community or the knitting community. I say yarn because I'm including crocheters don't worry. I feel like there's a lovely thing where sometimes quieter people, there's enough kindness and pause in this world that actually people, you can get to know quieter people as well. So I feel like hopefully that's also built in, there's enough respect and balance where you don't need to be a really kind of bombastic, bright personality to fight through this cosy room of yarn.

Adam (14:18): I mean, that's the lovely, that's what I absolutely love about going to knitting groups is that you don't have those extraordinarily dominant personalities and you tend to find quiet to people who sometimes want to come out their shells sometimes don't, and it's just a lovely gentle vibe of people.

Georgia (14:35): Generally, when you do get those sort of "vibrant personalities", they're coming there with an awareness of other people just being different as well, which is nice. And so I think that's also something that we're just, I feel like I'm watching a sort of a knitting group sitting down together in a community hall, but then with the added weird element of like, someone gets "cast off". Honestly, when they said "cast off", I was gagging. Like, I was just, it's so perfect. And why did we not realise they were going to say "cast off"? Like, you'll be cast off, like cast off the ship, like cast off. And it's just, it's so good.

Adam (15:10): Amazing. Let's, talk about the first challenge. So the first challenge for any, anyone that hasn't seen the show, this is now going to be full of spoilers.

Georgia (15:19): Yeah, the whole thing is a spoiler guys.

Adam (15:25): So I, so the first, I was really surprised to hear that their first challenge was 12 hours long. I was surprised that it was Fair Isle knitted in chunky. I don't think I... I mean, if you go to Fair Isle in Scotland, I wonder how many Fair Isle knitters you find up there knitting in chunky wool.

Georgia (15:45): No, no, I don't think you do. Oh gosh, I think that there was... I don't wanna give the spoiler right now. If you don't want to know this, then go to another episode, but the, the, the steeking incident, right... When that happened, the confidence with which– wasn't like a bombastic confidence, but like the subtle experiential confidence that Gordon had that steeking worked. It spoke to me, it said to me. This is a man who steeks and he feels comfortable with steeking. You don't do that in week one of a knitting show unless you've got experience doing this. And what I think he didn't have experience of was chunky yarn.

Adam (16:31): Absolutely, yeah.

Georgia (16:32): And I think that there is a weird tilt of the experience in that room where actually maybe some of the more experienced knitters like Holger, who, you know, I'm assuming that he'd knitted the vest that he'd made– You could kind of see his detest for using chunky yarn at various points. Like when they introduced the second challenge and they said chunky yarn again, the camera cut to this moment of him just sort of not quite eye rolling, but like...

Adam (16:59): I mean, I think, again, Holger was there on behalf of most of the knitting community who were just.

Georgia (17:05): And so I wonder if there is gonna be, we're going to see as challenges hopefully move away into other things away from chunky yarn if we start to see experience or success in the challenges just tilt a little bit.

Adam (17:18): Yeah, I really felt for Gordon as well because again, so we were WhatsApping at the time and we were in a group chatting about this. So as soon as the steeking thing came up, I actually said that I thought Gordon was onto a winner because I'll fully declare it. So, I wouldn't have steeked myself, but that's because of my experience – don't have experience steeking – I thought that that was a genius idea because it meant that he would have been working in the round for longer, which is generally faster. And so I thought that he was going to finish way ahead of anyone else. As soon as they pointed out that actually no chunky yarn doesn't steek well, I think it was die. or Di or Sheila said that, I then thought.

Georgia (18:06): And Isaac as well also, they did a little explainer.

Adam (18:09): I immediately understood. I'll explained for people why it won't work in case you don't understand, but the whole point of steeking is that you've got this very large surface area. It's like if you've got a piece of paper and you put another piece of paper on top, they slide apart. You can, if you leave three or four pieces of paper together, they still slide apart.

Georgia (18:27): Sorry, I'm interrupting you. The large surface area being the chunky yarn.

Adam (18:30): Well, so what happens is if you layer a phone book with another phone book, page by page, you can't pull them apart. You can drive two cars apart. It is impossible to move that apart. And that's what happens with steeking: when you've got both very small fibers. and all of those fibers are of hairy as well.

Georgia (18:48): Yes, it's the hairiness.

Adam (18:50): It kind of felts together so quickly. It's like Velcro.

Georgia (18:55): Velcro is a good example, yeah.

Adam (18:57): And that's what you rely on when you steek. With chunky, with great big chunky yarn, you've got, you know, a hundredth of a surface area, the contact area.

Georgia (19:06): That feels like an intuitive thing for me. I did wonder because steeking– I'm yeah, you can steek and not reinforce it, but I'm more familiar with reinforced steeking where you actually either crochet into it to reinforce it or you sew into it as well. So you would use maybe a knitting machine (?), a sewing machine to like run over it over and over again. And then you can cut through it and it's not gonna disrupt that line. And he didn't do that.

Adam (19:37): I don't know if they had access to sewing machines.

Georgia (19:40): But you could, you could crochet it.

Adam (19:42): He could have crocheted, yeah.

Georgia (19:44): And I think to be honest, I was thinking in the editing, I was like, is he– Are they just choosing not to show the reinforcing or explain that because they want to hype the drama? And they want to because they didn't, because they're just like, they're cutting into the yarn, they're cutting into the yarn. Which I think we once talked about like sort of cultural, different feelings towards different techniques and how I wondered if like in a country where steeking is normal, you don't fear steeking. But here, when I've cut into projects, not strictly steeking in the– I think I steeked before I really know what steeking was. I was just going like, okay, I'll just sew up this bit and then cut into it. And I feel like people maybe are just intuitively like, you can't spell "steek" without "eek", kind of, you know, really not comfy.

Adam (20:36): Yeah, whereas Gordon, it's a more natural thing. And I think he was, I mean, I will say it, think he was unfairly punished for that. I think that was, I think that was–

Georgia (20:44): But then he didn't actually really have a thing that he could like, you know– If you're going based on, okay, we've got to meet a minimum– Cause I also instinctively thought, no, Gordon shouldn't have left. Like he had so much more to give. And he did. I loved when they, at the beginning they said, he's a heritage, knitter enthusiast. And I thought, wow, he could have been such a like a valuable character and technical character to kind of follow on with the series. So we'll have to see how that pans out. But– I just, at the end of the day. He was the only person who presented something that wasn't like, intact. I get that Dipti's didn't go over the head, but I feel like that is a smaller mistake than something held together with clips.

Adam (21:35): I mean, I think that is going to be the great debate of episode one.

Georgia (21:39): It's like bin gate straight away.

Adam (21:41): Which is the bigger sin: to cut something and make it fall apart or that it can't fit over your head. mean, it's-.

Georgia (21:49): Oh my God. Maybe I just don't want to oust Dipti because I've totally done that. I knitted a jumper for my niece once and I had to redo the collar three times. And by the time I'd re-knitted it, they live in Hungary, by the time I went back, she'd grown too big for it it wasn't comfortable on the seams anymore.

Adam (22:03): Absolutely. I mean, I've also, my, I think the jumper, which I get most attention for, my big cable knit jumper (which you've probably seen if you follow me on Instagram) then that jumper, the neck was the last thing I did. And when I put the neck onto it, the first time I then tried to put it on, it didn't go over my head. And then I took it off. I had to take out the neck again and I did it again. Second time, it didn't go over my head. And it was the third attempt before it actually went over my head. So I really felt like– when Dipti, you know, she had tears in her eyes, I absolutely felt for her because it happens. The problem isn't a time challenge. There's no escape from it. There's no second chance.

Georgia (22:42): I feel like I had to go back to actually look at her vest because I think I was just still reeling from like, oh my God, it doesn't fit on her head. It was the second time I went back to check names and everything that I realized when they held it up, it was a nice, it was a nice thing. It was cute. It was a lovely design and yeah, it just didn't fit over the head.

Adam (23:03): Yeah. Yeah. It was a shame. In terms of the other surprises in that first challenge, I was very surprised. Who was it? Someone said that they have never knitted Fair Isle before.

Georgia (23:18): Dipti.

Adam (23:19): Was that Dipti who said that as well? So that was a big surprise. That was a surprise that she was...

Georgia (23:32): So, yeah, it was a "wow, okay, we applied for a knitting show, but we've not done these things". But I also think that any kind of like thing that you do, be it like a sport, a craft or any pursuit, and this could be for anything in your life, you don't know what you don't know. So if you are starting out and you're, you might not even realize that there's a YouTube community or you might not even realize that there are books on it or a podcast or you just don't know what you don't know. And so I kind of felt for her in that, you know, she's gonna have a very steep learning curve going through this, but actually, you know, I mean, I've done stranded colourwork. I've not expressly knitted like a Fair Isle jumper.

Adam (24:18): What I'm excited about hopefully is that they're going to show like, I'm assuming that she has got some amazing knitting skills in other knitting disciplines and I'm really excited to see what that's gonna be. Like you said about Gordon not showing us all of his heritage work that he's done in knitting, I want to go and see more of that. I'm also excited to see the other things that Dipti does knit.

Georgia (24:46): Yes, and I also wonder if there'll be a weird downfall between the people who are competent crocheters in the group, which, you know, crochet is super popular now. I wonder if maybe some of the people who are have less knitting experience will actually have more crochet experience. And whilst this is a knitting show, I think we can probably expect to see some moments along the journey where they're required to do some crochet as well. And that could be a real sort of like wheat from the chaff moment.

Adam (25:15): Should we talk about the second challenge? Group challenge, group knitting.

Adam (25:20): Have you ever group knitted before?.

Georgia (25:22): No!

Adam (25:23): I've never group knitted before.

Georgia (25:24): Has anyone done this before? Not just the people in that circle. Everybody else at home went, "no?" I really felt like this challenge almost, it came down, like you could see it going right and wrong from the outset.

Adam (25:42): Absolutely. I, there was a sort of, it felt that the teams weren't quite balanced in their confidence, because I felt that there was, again, because they started to form that rapport, Simon and Holger were working super well together from the outset. Holger's confidence carried everyone in the group. They were all happy. It's not like The Apprentice, where everyone was just fighting straight away – another whittle show – but where you have everyone fighting for, it's got to be my idea. I think in a way everyone was relieved to have someone who had the confidence. We just, I mean, you've got to cover a sofa. completely, including the legs in 10 hours. That is a massive challenge. And you just need to throw yourself into it. And I think it just looked from those opening shots, like Holger, Simon's team was just up for it behind it. They knew what they were doing, it was within their grasp. I personally, I it got dismissed a little bit by Tom and by the judges as a sort of a little simple. I don't think that was too simple. I think they did a wonderful job. And I think that was a fantastic response to the challenge. You've got to cover a sofa in 10 hours. Just do it any way you can.

Georgia (22:56): There was a lot of experience embedded in the design that Holger suggested. He's got experience of tailoring, so he knows how things go together. And he probably didn't think, oh yes, we shouldn't make it panelled like a normal sofa because we're knitters and that would be difficult. He instinctively, his brain went to let's do strips that go along this and then this will be achievable in the time. And that was his experience, I think, his experience of being a tailor, of having to make things out of several pieces of fabric, of looking at something, a three-dimensional shape, like a body. that has all these different shapes and curves and different legs and arms and limbs, and actually making something, coming up with a pattern, it was kind of a pattern design challenge. And when you watch Holger's group, he just kind of confidently comes forward with, okay, well, I haven't covered a sofa before, but I think that we could most reasonably achieve it in this way. He was anticipating it's a lot easier to sew things together one long strip. rather than having to sew around corners and angles because he has experience of it every day. And then you compare that to the other group who were like, maybe we should do a sunset and then, a holiday scene. It was-

Adam (28:21): I mean, the ambition in that group was amazing as well in that they came up with this like broad and creative, almost more disparate idea in that they had. It would have been amazing if they'd had 20 hours because there were textures going on as well as colours.

Georgia (28:36): It's still really hard to execute. I think if you've not done that kind of thing before, the instinct is to think of, I'm going to make panels like I would see on a sofa that you buy at DFS. Other sofa providers are available. And so the instinct is like, I'll go for this. I feel like they were led by the visual, the aesthetic idea of a sunset, that executed well, could have been successful with more time. But I even wonder if with more time, it would have fallen down because it just didn't have the construction element.

Adam (29:15): It does make me wonder whether there's been any normalization done to adjust for people's knitting speed. So by that, I mean, I wonder if they have chosen a group of people who knit at a relatively similar speed. because I know, so I put out, I guess a challenge a little while back, someone, because I get challenged all the time, you you knit so fast, and I don't feel like I knit terribly fast. And it turns out I do knit sort of average speed for a reasonably experienced knitter at about– I can knit 40 to 45 stitches a minute in stockinette.

Georgia (29:48): You're just very good at sitting down consistently and knitting.

Adam (29:51): Yeah, but when I put the challenge out there, so for example, Olga, who runs the Instagram account Gotham Knits, she was over 80 stitches a minute. That's more than twice as fast as me. So I know like going into a challenge, like we wouldn't be, if we were challenged to knit something together at the same time. Like straight away, she can knit twice as much as I can in the same time. She can produce twice as much fabric. And I wonder if the Game of Wool has somehow, you know, maybe they've stripped out any contestants that can knit super fast and probably super slow. Like if you, it's got to be that if you're a really slow knitter, you can't participate in it. And I guess maybe, you when it comes to being Britain's greatest knitter, which is what they're talking about on the show. If you're a slow knitter, guess they're automatically saying, you can't carry that epithet. Which is maybe a bit sad, that's working within the constraints of TV.

Georgia (30:47): Again, it goes back to this thing about being able to knit with chunky yarn or not knit with chunky yarn. I don't have experience of knitting with chunky yarn. And I think it might have been Lydia who said, I have a newfound respect for people– I think there's someone who said it off camera, so I'm not sure exactly who said it, but they've got a newfound respect for people who knit with chunky yarn, and Holger's just like, I absolutely cannot do this. Like, this is, it just is not working for me.

Adam (31:15): Well, Holger said that, and fair play, but I think there was some significant humility there, because he obviously could do it, and you know, was at the end of the show, I'm pretty sure–

Georgia (31:26): But it would wreck my hands, I think. I mean, I had a hand surgery a couple of years ago, which I'm sure we'll talk about at some point, not the surgery itself, but the adjustments I had to make around knitting and knitting with Cubics needles, square needles and stuff. And when I've knitted with or tried to knit with like the Doppio Sweater (Hong, 2023), I forget who made it, I kind of cast that on at one point. And then holding three different strands together to do like a quick, fun, chunky knit was not working for my hands.

Adam (31:51): So I also, I've used 25mm needles to produce a hat for my mother. And so, and I made it out of, it wasn't yarn so much as a fabric, was a ribbon of kind of scarf edges, selvedge. Like it was this long cashmere selvedge, which was basically scrap. But because it was a fat ribbon, I could knit it up, I thought, very quickly on these enormous needles. It was painful and slow. I mean, okay, yes, I knitted the hat within a few hours, but it was, you I would have expected to do it in 10 minutes or something.

Georgia (32:31): I also feel like, I know that you're saying about the 80 stitches a minute, like you're actually measuring it, right? But I do, I find that sometimes people get, they see the, like the fast visuals of quick English style knitting with the moving the yarn around, moving the yarn around, and they think, wow, it's lightning fast, because they think there's so much more happening. And then if you see a continental knitter who's just like quietly going, doot, doot, doot, doot, doot, doot, there's not always the perception that that is– I think especially from non-knitters. I think other people have, I've heard people describe, oh, I saw this woman on the train and she was, oh, it's crazy. She was moving her needles so quickly and it was amazing. And she was knitting with like five needles and was like DPNs, yeah.

Adam (33:13): You know it was English style knitting, because that's where you see the movement. But also, I mean, there are separate world records for English and continental knitting.

Georgia (33:24): Are they separate? I'm not even, I'm not contesting, I'm genuinely asking. Because a person the other day said to me, yeah, even the knitting world record for the fastest knitting, that's held by an English knitter. And I was like, like an English style knitter. I was like–

Adam (33:37): Well, it's a good point. And now I feel like I can't, now you've challenged it, I can't, without fact checking myself, I can't go on record and say. But I remember looking at it and it was within one or two stitches a minute. It's like 136 versus 138 or something, six a minute. Something astronomical.

Georgia (33:54): Whatever works for you. I don't think that there should be any style shame. Like whatever works.

Adam (34:00): So I mean, overall, mean, the judges picked out Lydia as the knitter of the, what do they call it? The Big Knitter. Big knitter, right.

Georgia (34:08): Can I just have my little soapbox moment about that? Surely, surely you can come up with– I kept thinking that there must be some kind of pun I'm not getting. And I watched it with my husband and he was like, no, it must be a pun. They can't have just called it Big Knitter.

Adam (34:26): I'm sorry, also, if I was on that show and you called me a "big knitter". I'm sorry. My self-criticism about my weight all the rest of it for decades would be spilling out like how dare you call me "Big Knitter".

Georgia (34:42): So I'm six foot one and the thing is now in adulthood I've got comfortable with the fact that I am a woman in proportion with herself and that's fine. But at school I was like I had a rough time in school not just for that reason but they would call me the BFG and but they would be called Big Fat Giant. And it was horrible. I had some German family friends who like, every time they would see me, even when I was a teenager, they'd just go like, you're so big, Georgia. Because they were saying like, the word that we would just use in German is just like, you're just a large person. Like you're just tall. And yeah, I'm not into the Big Knitter. Surely, surely we could have come up with something better than that.

Adam (35:24): Yeah, 100% of all the terminology that came across in the show, that was the one thing that I had a real problem with.

Georgia (35:31): Maybe each week, we like come here, and we think of an alternative that they could have used.

Adam (35:37): I'm definitely gonna come back next week with an alternative for Big Knitter, because I was not a fan.

Georgia (35:43): Big Knitter, like, what? Come on.

Adam (35:46): So what else we can talk about? I mean, obviously the other thing that I picked up had nothing to do with the show, but it was the advert that was shown in the middle of it.

Georgia (35:52): Ughhhhh. That was so creepy.

Adam (35:57): It was such a strange song. So again, anyone who's not seen the show or if you're watching it overseas, you may not have seen the advert, but basically the advert was for a crematorium service or a cremation service. Did you watch it on TV TV or online online?

Adam (36:14): No, I was Channel 4 On Demand.

Georgia (36:16): Yeah. I was 4 On Demand as well. And I'm totally interrupting Adam sorry. I'll let you get back there in a second. But just on our group chat, some people were saying, I didn't get that advert, but I've seen it before on other things. And so I wonder if like, depending on different, it could be UK people is what I'm saying.

Adam (36:31): So I the post on social media. I did a video about it on Instagram and TikTok. A lot of people have recognized it. It wasn't everyone and I think if you were watching terrestrial TV, you may not have been served that advert, but that-

Georgia (36:46): What's terrestrial TV? Sorry. Like I'm supposed to be clever, like what's terrestrial TV.

Adam (36:53): It's when you're not watching it through the internet, I think. That's how I used to refer to it.

Georgia (36:56): Okay, okay. I'm like extra terrestrial, like okay, okay.

Adam (37:00): No, it's not extra terrestrial, I think that the– I think that what they were, what they were doing there, I think it's a massive mistake. Someone on my post said, you know, they've got no control over the advertising. I promise you, Channel 4 absolutely have control over the advertising. And it's fair enough. Like, what has happened is that they have gone away and they've said, well, let's create this show. It's going to appeal to knitters. The main demographic for knitters is older and therefore we're going to serve up adverts that suit that older audience. And they've sold that space for that reason. And I just think that's a real shame because, and I know that the– The advertising group, when it comes to these things, is separate from the group that does the editorial. They're almost separate companies that commission the advertising and commission the shows. But it's a real shame. I know that the team behind the show, because they wanted to move away from that stigma, they've worked hard to move away from that stigma. I know that they'll be disappointed that that was. And it was only one advert of a number. It wasn't like it was the only advert and played over and over again, really– But I think it's a shame. And I just want to add on that point that the other thing that I did notice about that group, were only two, out of those 10 people, only two of them are over 60. And that's not, I don't think that's representative of knitters as a whole. but I think it's probably a little bit more representative of the group that Tom, Di, and Sheila want to see knitting and that want to engage with. And I'm all for that. I absolutely love it. I also want to acknowledge that it may not have been the most representative, truly representative group of knitters.

Georgia (38:36): I also wonder if it could have been quite nice in the group. I think everyone is well cast. It's great. I don't want to say this at the expense of anyone who's on the show not being that, but I'm surprised that they didn't have at least one older, really experienced knitter in their 80s or something. Because on Bake Off, sometimes you get people there's usually like one a season of someone who's like a old school, really, really good baker who maybe might struggle a little bit more on innovation or kind of creative design in the bakes, but they are so solid. So like on technical challenges, they like smash out the park. And I wonder if that could have helped a bit. I mean, yes, it wouldn't necessarily have helped the whole, I mean, that's a separate thing from the cremation debacle, which we never actually really covered. So let's like actually say what this advert was. Adam, you were saying this and I totally interrupted you, so please go ahead.

Adam (39:37): Well, the advert was a– was it two people singing on stage to guitars? Basically singing this song about cremation.

Georgia (39:47): It was like a folk song, like Simon and Garfunkel vibes. I can't remember even the name of the company, because I was just so like what?

Adam (39:51): I think was it Simplicity or something like that.

Georgia (39:56): (singing) Simplicity Cremation. Simplicity Cremation. I don't want to give them advertising on our podcast.

Adam (40:01): Yeah, no, quite right, Georgia. We'll cut that later or bleep it out "baa" it out. We'll tell them our magical noise we're to use. No, I... It was just horrible. Weird. It was a horrible ad anyway.

Georgia (40:13): And you know, it's like, it's kind of, it's doubly offensive because it's offensive to like younger audiences. Well, not necessarily offensive because I don't want to say it's offensive to be called old or to be for knitting to be thought of exclusively as old because I think that's disrespectful to older people as well. But I think it's disrespectful to older people who are trying to tune in and watch a nice knitting show, and then they get a cremation advert that reminds them of their mortality.

Adam (40:42): I know. And it's like your Sunday night vibe is– it's Sunday night, eight o'clock, I'm going to sit down, watch the television, chill out, not think about death before I go to sleep.

Georgia (40:51): Exactly. So I think they, like you said, the actual Game of Wool people wouldn't have had any control over that. Channel 4 definitely did.

Adam (40:59): Yeah. It's a shame. It's a shame. I mean, maybe you and I are showing that we're out of touch because maybe it is something that if you're– you know, later in life, maybe you want to see that advert, but you can write in and tell us that at an email address that doesn't exist yet.

Adam (41:13): I do want to, I want to pull out as well. I got one comment, can't, I think it was on Instagram from a lady called Kath Lansbury. She said she really didn't like the show and she thought the footage was really bad. Again, that comes back to what you were saying about how like the camera crews and all the rest of it are probably still getting into how to shoot it. But she came up with, she also had a really interesting idea, which is that the challenge part of it, wouldn't it be a great idea if instead of just making one massive furniture object, instead everyone was knitting something for charity and to sell in a charity shop like a teddy bear or hats or something like that. And I absolutely see why the show wants to create a big installation art essentially. But I also thought that was a lovely idea.

Georgia (41:59): It is a lovely idea. I'm having an interesting thought mulling on that. Cause I remember seeing the comment and I didn't think this at the time, but now you've said it to me again. I'm wondering though, I think there could be some charity knitting somewhere in the series. I think that's very like, you know, like let's speed knit like premature baby hats or something like that. Like I could see that becoming something, obviously sensitively treated. But I wonder if going in right from the outset that "knitting for charity, knitting for free!" devalues the craft a little bit in terms of not to say that knitting for charity is not valuable, but actually if they actually did that, we're like, okay, everything we're going to knit on this show is gonna go to a charity shop or we're going to go to charity. That actually does that then create a nationwide expectation on knitters that they should just be willing to knit things and then give it to charity. Because if you've got non-knitters watching the show and they're like, "well, that's good, you should be knitting for charity" or like, well, you know, and what is maybe the implication of that, if they were to do that.

Adam (43:05): That's a really good point, yeah. Creating a cultural expectation that actually what knitters do is that they just fabricate stuff for charity.

Georgia (43:12): And don't get paid for what they do.

Adam (43:14): Yeah, which is a whole other, that's a whole other episode we're gonna have to go into because the pay rates in knitting. Well, let me tell you, they are such that I am having to start a podcast. So there we go.

Adam (43:49) Next week, next week, I'm just thinking about what we're gonna see on the show. We've got, there's an 80s challenge and a dog challenge. I mean, personally, there's gonna be a big old rant from me next week because I haven't– Everyone wants me to knit for Rufus, but you haven't seen how quickly Rufus can destroy anything.

Georgia (43:49): It's pretty spectacular.

Adam (43:50) I really mean anything. He can just take apart anything. I don't like, as you may know, don't really like knitting with anything that isn't merino. And the idea– we'll come onto yarn snobbery another time. It's not just snobbery, it's a adjustment.

Georgia (44:09): It's a sensory adjustment!

Adam (44:10): It's a sensory adjustment, thank you Georgia. But I really feel like knitting for animals is. It's going to be an interesting one. Yeah. They've obviously picked out dogs that can.

Georgia (44:23): Hopefully.

Adam (44:24): Hopefully going to be really well behaved and not chew it to bits before.

Georgia (44:29): Oh, the other week I was around here and another one of our friends is here as well. And she got out like a new hank of yarn to kind of show us and go, yeah, yeah. And left it on the side for just a second. And Rufus came and went "nom". And then just scuttled off and you were like, "no, no Rufus, let it go, let it go". So, it was just the most, CleevelyKnits yarnful moment of Rufus just running around with this full beautiful skein of yarn, just perfectly in his mouth with all the twists and twirls like hanging. It was just so funny.

Adam (45:03): That's what no one ever gets to see because whenever I put a picture of Rufus on Instagram, unfortunately, he's very hungry, and I've got a big handful of treats and he's not noticing at all whatever else I'm doing.

Georgia (45:13): I did love that hot dog picture though, the other day.

Adam (45:15): Yeah, that was it. His annual Halloween costume.

Georgia (45:19): So good.

Adam (45:20): I'm really interested as well about our background noise because whilst the neighbors have chopped down a tree during this episode and also, we've just had a massive helicopter going overhead.

Georgia (45:30): They can be forgiven because it's probably air ambulance.

Adam (45:33): Well it's either the air ambulance because their flight path does go close to here or it might be might be the Prince of Cambridge whatever he's called. Yeah, William. Duke of Cambridge. Duke of Cambridge he comes to– when they come up they do come by helicopter. Anyway.

Adam (45:48) I am very keen to see next week what happens. I'm very keen to see whether we get a load of chunky knits still. Because I feel like that will lose viewers quicker than anything else actually if it continues to be chunky because I just don't know anyone that that just knits in chunky forever. And that's my biggest hope is that they move. I'm sure I've seen in one of the adverts that there is a kind of light fitting or a lamp shade which is knitted in lace and that's got me excited because. I'd love to see some lace knitting. Actually, I had a look at Gordon's Instagram, by the way, and he's just finished this amazingly, amazingly intricate and beautiful lace. I think it's poor Gordon for a baby blanket or a christening blanket, and it's just the most beautiful thing. But yeah, so I'm excited to see the challenges. I really want to see. I want to see lace knitting, want to see cable knitting, I want to see all of those different disciplines and I'd love to see it as something that's not chunky yarn.

Georgia (46:49): If we see this show kind of continue into the future, I really think that this Gordon steeking situation is going to become a really infamous situation. Steekgate. Also, it reminded me, have you ever watched Drew Paul's Drag Race? No, RuPaul's Drag Race, there we go. Have ever watched it?

Adam (47:08): I have.

Georgia (47:09): Okay, so. Full disclosure, I haven't followed all the series and things, but there was, I think was maybe around season 10 or something. It's the one where the Queen Vanjie comes back, having, I think they were booted out, sashayed away'd, on the first episode of the previous season. And there was like an outpouring of support on social media that was like, "bring back Vanjie, bring back Vanjie", then Vanjie came back on this next season. But I would just love to see Gordon again, because I think he had so much more to give. And, you know, even if it's not seeing him on the Game of Wool, think he's like, it's emblazoned in my heart.

Adam (47:51): I mean, it's a general point about the whittle format as we were discussing.

Georgia (47:52): The whittle format?

Adam (47:53) The whittle format.

Georgia (48:01): The whittle cute format!

Adam (48:02) Is that it might benefit from, you know, they tried to squeeze so much into the first episode, they've got to show 10 different people. Maybe that is better suited where the first episode actually split into two whole episodes and you get two hours of footage because you need more time to explore the characters. And as you saying earlier, like it will be brilliant to see the characters that we're seeing on the Game of Wool develop and the relationships develop and I'm sure the show will become more engaging as a result.

Georgia (48:29): Just as a final homage to Gordon, before we probably are wrapping up soon.

Adam (48:34): I think we probably should.

Georgia (48:35): There were lovely conversation between Isaac and Gordon when Gordon shared about knitting somewhere on the cruise ship and someone coming to him and saying, "I think a jigsaw might be something more manly", which is like, hey, it's a jigsaw manly, like what? And then seeing Isaac's take on that, is he 18? Something like that. And he said, "I think if someone's got those concerns, I've got other things to worry about". And I was really struck by that, that someone, that this younger generation of people coming to craft and coming to knitting, that an 18 year old guy, that that's his instinct of that situation. And I thought that spoke volumes to me about how society is changing and how knitting is a part of that and knitters are a part of that. And it was a lovely little exchange. I really, I was really grateful for Gordon offering that story because it gave that beautiful moment.

Adam (49:28): It was, I mean. It was wonderful to hear that and was wonderful to hear that expressed. And I dare say I think we'll hear more of it because I can't imagine that Simon doesn't have something to say on that as well. As a builder and a former Marine, I'm sure he's got stories to tell. I know as a male knitter, myself, that it is something that people talk about, they're shocked by and feel also– not just a surprised by but feel like it's a talking point as well, that they have a right to have very big views on it just because you're a man who knits. That's a–

Georgia (50:09): You know, knitting in public would be an excellent topic, I think.

Adam (50:13): Absolutely, yeah. mean, because I knit in pubs and I like to celebrate that. I think people from my Instagram probably think that I knit more in pubs than I do, but it's something I'd love to talk more about, and I get lots of comments back from people saying they're too scared to do it. And I think that's a real shame because it's a lovely pastime and it's better than looking at your phone for, as an example. It's something you can do anywhere. But it's an excellent point. And if you are listening to this or watching this anywhere, well, I guess you're watching on YouTube or listening to it on any of the places that we are listing this podcast, then please do get in touch if there's something you'd like us to talk about here.

Georgia (50:47): Yeah, for sure.

Adam (50:48): We've got, as I said, we've got a very exciting series of episodes coming up. We'll be commenting on the Game of Wool again next week, but we've got some other hot topics. But make sure you are subscribing to us wherever you get your podcasts, whether it's Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or if you're following us on YouTube, then make sure you're following there. But please do head to our social media for the time being that's probably at CleevelyKnits where we're posting about this. And let us know what you think of this episode. Also what you want to see in future episodes. Any and all feedback, including about the helicopter that flew over.

Georgia (51:21): And now the blowers as well.

Adam (51:22): Now we've got leaf blowers out.

Georgia (51:23): It's multiple. There's at least two layering over.

Adam (51:28): This is going to be a good test of our microphones. If you are listening to this on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, you are going to be missing out on a treat because we've actually got microphones. Which I'll have to share a picture of on social media.

Georgia (51:41): Oh yeah, no, please. I love that I got the Sea Slug one. This is, if you don't know what that means, then look on Adam's Instagram at CleevelyKnits.

Adam (51:53): Lovely. Well, let's leave it there, Georgia. Thank you so much for –

Georgia (51:55): Yeah, pleasure.

Adam (51:56): I've really enjoyed this. I can't wait. really can't wait to do episode two. It's not the old times, except we're not knitting.

Georgia (52:03): Yeah. Click, click, click, click. Click, click, click.

Adam (52:07): That's our jingle. We need to make it on knitting needles. Do think we can compose a piece of it? You're a composer.

Georgia (52:13): I mean, I could figure that out, yeah. Right, let's stop talking. Let's end the episode. See you next week.